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Thread: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

  1. #371
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    The people involved in torture were barely convicted if convicted at all, and according to them, instructions and methdology of techniques involving knee strikes, waterboarding, etc. came from the top. And again, Dick Cheney commented that it was not torture. According to Cheney it was "abuse."


    This is what Dilawar experienced at Bagram, does it qualify as torture to you?

    A black hood pulled over his head
    Knee strikes to the abdomen
    Peroneal strikes (a nerve behind the kneecap)
    Shoved against a wall
    Pulled by his beard
    His bare feet stepped on
    Kicks to the groin
    Chained to the ceiling for extended hours
    Deprivation of sleep
    Slammed his chest into a table front



    Specialist Glendale C. Walls of the U.S. Army was the only person convicted of Dilawar's death, and he served two months. Dilawar was beaten to death and his corpse was left chained to the ceiling.

    Army Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, who was appointed chief of staff by Secretary of State Colin Powell in 2002, during George W. Bush’s first administration. Wilkerson told “60 Minutes” that he could “smell” a cover-up and was asked by Powell to investigate how American soldiers had come to use torture and stated; "I was developing the picture as to how this all got started in the first place, and that alarmed me as much as the abuse itself because it looked like authorization for the abuse went to the very top of the United States government". Willie V. Brand, a solider convicted of assault and maiming in two deaths, and Brand’s commanding officer, Capt. Christopher Beiring confirmed that several of their leaders had witnessed and knew about the abuse and torture of the prisoners.

    Beiring and Brand showed no remorse when recounting the torture. Beiring was charged with dereliction of duty, a charge that was later dropped. Brand was convicted at his court martial, but rather than the 16 years in prison he was facing from the charges brought against him, he was given a reduction in his rank.

    Afghan Deaths Linked to Unit at Iraq Prison - NYTimes.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Said the person not supporting their argument.
    It is not my job to support what you say.



    And again.
    Everybody knows that individuals have acted wrongly and been prosecuted. But individuals acting wrongly in there position is not the Government acting wrongly.
    Do you really not know that?
    This thread is about supposed US torture. Not individuals who acted on their own and were prosecuted for it. Do you really not know that?




    Yes it is, and you are not doing it. Most likely because you know your whole spiel was nonsense in regards to this topic.
    Last edited by SheWolf; 12-26-14 at 03:46 AM.

  2. #372
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    The people involved in torture were barely convicted if convicted at all, and according to them, instructions and methdology of techniques involving knee strikes from the top. And again, Dick Cheney commented that it was not torture. It was "abuse."
    And again irrelevant to this topic.
    It was abuse by the individuals and they were prosecuted for it.
    Matters not one bit if you agree or disagree with the outcome.
    It was not the governement acting, but individuals.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    This is what Dilawar experienced at Bagram, does it qualify as torture to you?

    A black hood pulled over his head
    Knee strikes to the abdomen
    Peroneal strikes (a nerve behind the kneecap)
    Shoved against a wall
    Pulled by his beard
    His bare feet stepped on
    Kicks to the groin
    Chained to the ceiling for extended hours
    Deprivation of sleep
    Slammed his chest into a table front
    All irrelevant to this topic.
    The Government did not do this.
    Do you really not know the difference?


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Dilawar was beaten to death and his corpse was left chained to the ceiling.
    Still irrelevant.
    Soldiers acting on their own were not acting on behalf of the Government.
    You were the one who said they were not an idiot but are having trouble distinguishing between the bad acts of a few and those of the Government. Why is that?


    Rectal feeding was done by the Government and it was not torture or abuse.
    Last edited by Excon; 12-26-14 at 04:18 AM.
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  3. #373
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    The people involved in torture were barely convicted if convicted at all, and according to them, instructions and methdology of techniques involving knee strikes, waterboarding, etc. came from the top. And again, Dick Cheney commented that it was not torture. According to Cheney it was "abuse."


    This is what Dilawar experienced at Bagram, does it qualify as torture to you?

    A black hood pulled over his head
    Knee strikes to the abdomen
    Peroneal strikes (a nerve behind the kneecap)
    Shoved against a wall
    Pulled by his beard
    His bare feet stepped on
    Kicks to the groin
    Chained to the ceiling for extended hours
    Deprivation of sleep
    Slammed his chest into a table front



    Specialist Glendale C. Walls of the U.S. Army was the only person convicted of Dilawar's death, and he served two months. Dilawar was beaten to death and his corpse was left chained to the ceiling.

    Army Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, who was appointed chief of staff by Secretary of State Colin Powell in 2002, during George W. Bush’s first administration. Wilkerson told “60 Minutes” that he could “smell” a cover-up and was asked by Powell to investigate how American soldiers had come to use torture and stated; "I was developing the picture as to how this all got started in the first place, and that alarmed me as much as the abuse itself because it looked like authorization for the abuse went to the very top of the United States government". Willie V. Brand, a solider convicted of assault and maiming in two deaths, and Brand’s commanding officer, Capt. Christopher Beiring confirmed that several of their leaders had witnessed and knew about the abuse and torture of the prisoners.

    Beiring and Brand showed no remorse when recounting the torture. Beiring was charged with dereliction of duty, a charge that was later dropped. Brand was convicted at his court martial, but rather than the 16 years in prison he was facing from the charges brought against him, he was given a reduction in his rank.

    Afghan Deaths Linked to Unit at Iraq Prison - NYTimes.com
    It would probably help get the perpetrators prosecuted, if the human rights activists did not confuse bad treatment with torture and Gitmo with Auschwitz. That has been stupid from the beginning, thoroughly counterproductive and is now only pig headed.

  4. #374
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    The individuals were barely prosecuted, and many times, the charges were dropped or reduced to nothing (such as a drop in rank for being involved in torturing two people to death, as cited above). The military court failed the victims, so that is on the government. The majority of people involved in torture and even torturing people to death rarely served over one year.

    Furthermore, you're setting arbitrary standards for what qualifies as "government torture." I am not sure what has to occur for you to say the government was involved, but all of investigations into the question of government led torture suggests that these weren't bad apples acting alone. Instructions to torture and use the methods listed above came from the top of the government, and it was approved by the CIA to use as a means of interrogation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    And again irrelevant to this topic.
    It was abuse by the individuals and they were prosecuted for it.
    Matters not one bit if you agree or disagree with the outcome.
    It was not the governement acting, but individuals.


    All irrelevant to this topic.
    The Government did not do this.
    Do you really not know the difference?


    Still irrelevant.
    Soldiers acting on their own were not acting on behalf of the Government.
    You were the one who said they were not an idiot, so why are you having trouble distinguishing between the bad acts of a few and those of the Government?


    Rectal feeding was done by the Government and it was not torture.
    Last edited by SheWolf; 12-26-14 at 04:30 AM.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    The individuals were barely prosecuted, and many times, the charges were dropped or reduced to nothing (such as a drop in rank for being involved in torturing somebody to death, as cited above). The military court failed the victims, so that is on the government. The majority of people involved in torture and even torturing people to death rarely served over one year.
    YOu really have a hard time understanding the difference between the actions of the Government and the actions of individuals. They do not equate regardless if you like or do not like the outcome.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Furthermore, you're setting arbitrary standards for what qualifies as "government torture."
    No, I am not.
    That is an absurd thing to say.
    You are trying to conflate different issues and make them all Government when they are not.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I am not sure what has to occur for you to say the government was involved, but all of investigations into the question of government led torture suggests that these weren't bad apples acting alone.
    No they do not.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Instructions to torture and use the methods listed above came from the top of the government, and it was approved by the CIA to use as a means of interrogation.
    Wrong.

    These act by the individuals were not authorized. Had they been they would have had a complete defense.
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    If the government and CIA approves of the action and instructs US military and personnel to engage in the action, the guess what... it's an action that the government and CIA are responsible for

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    YOu really have a hard time understanding the difference between the actions of the Government and the actions of individuals. They do not equate regardless if you like or do not like the outcome.


    No, I am not.
    That is an absurd thing to say.
    You are trying to conflate different issues and make them all Government when they are not.


    No they do not.


    Wrong.

    These act by the individuals were not authorized. Had they been they would have had a complete defense.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob0627 View Post
    All senior U.S. officials and CIA agents who authorized or carried out torture like waterboarding as part of former President George W. Bush's national security policy must be prosecuted, top U.N. officials said Wednesday.
    918746d1370961072-another-scandal-hillary-sex-drugs-prostitutes-minors-secret-service-cover-up-m.jpg

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    If the government and CIA approves of the action and instructs US military and personnel to engage in the action, the guess what... it's an action that the government and CIA are responsible for
    Guess what? You haven't proven any such thing. D'oh!

    All you have is an unsupported allegation.

    And Soldiers acting on their own, even if following approved techniques, does not mean it is the Government doing it.
    What it does mean is some soldiers acted outside of their authority and were brought to justice.
    Even if you do not like the outcome. If you want to opine that is a travesty of Justice, go ahead.
    It still doesn't actually matter one bit to whether or not it was the Government acting or just the individual.

    The Government has taught many a soldier to kill. But you do not see folks going around blaming the Government when they kill someone outside the scope of their actual duties.
    But you do see them prosecuted.
    Same here.
    Last edited by Excon; 12-26-14 at 05:54 AM.
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    The interrogation methods were designed to not run afoul of the law.
    You mean the tortures (the word is used all over the place in the Senate report), some that resulted in death. Right.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    For you, I'm guessing none since you asked that question.

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