Sabanist
Well-known member
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- Aug 2, 2014
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You honestly think the CIA are telling the truth? The blood is on their hands.
You honestly think the report is true?
You honestly think the CIA are telling the truth? The blood is on their hands.
You did exactly what I said you'd do, snitch or not.
And no, I should you years ago that the people who run those programs you went through stated before congress that you did not go through what they went through. That has been clearly stated.
I've never been waterboarded, but there are others on this board who have who you are free to check with.
You honestly think the CIA are telling the truth? The blood is on their hands.
I always have the urge to chuckle when people try to draw parallels between the "waterboarding" people do to each other so they can say they've experienced it and what actually happens in the field. They aren't the same thing at all.
You honestly think the report is true?
:shrug: what was your SERE experience?
Don't need any to recognize that experiencing something in a controlled training environment where you KNOW it will end, and you won't be at any real risk, is nothing like being subjected to it up to 200 times by an enemy who you don't have any real reason to believe is not OK killing you, or doing it another 200 times, unless and until you say what they want you to say.
:shrug: what was your SERE experience?
I know the difference between what happens in the field and playing around with your buds secure in the knowledge that they'll stop when you say the safe-word and won't cause you any real harm. The primary reason some misguided people think waterboarding is effective is that its most powerful effect is purely psychological. An effect which isn't duplicated in pitiful simulations.
KSM, for example, not only became extremely helpful...
:shrug: KSM knew it was in a controlled environment and that it would end as well. He used to taunt his captors by counting the seconds off on his fingers that he knew they had until they had to stop.
However, your admitted lack of experience and subsequent willingness to contradict those who actually know what they are talking about is noted
:doh
Gitmo isn't "the field".
SERE C isn't "playing around with your buds"
The primary reason people think waterboarding is effective is because it was effective. KSM, for example, not only became extremely helpful, he suggested to us that we waterboard all of "the brothers" we detained, as it freed them from their obligation to suffer by resisting.
:lol: I'm a snitch because I pointed out that you didn't manage to read the post you were responding to closely enough, and thought it was a reply to you rather than someone else? Okay.
Stress Positions until muscles give in? Check. Sleep deprivation for days at a time? Check. Hunger? Check. Left cold and wet for days on end? Check. I've never been waterboarded, but there are others on this board who have who you are free to check with.
OK, so in defense of waterboarding, you're saying it doesn't work. Brilliant.
Who did I contradict? Is there someone out there, a U.S. soldier, who's been waterboarded by an enemy and who has asserted that it's NOT torture?
Again,before congress, the testimony was no, you don't. You get a minor taste and that's all.
So he mocked his interrogators, but the torture was effective? You need to pick one or the other.
And no one argues torture is ineffective in getting people to say what they think the person doing the torture wants them to say - a confession, whatever.
Obviously the purpose is to get them to talk, and eventually most WILL talk. The question is whether it's a reliable way to get actionable intelligence, is better than highly effective traditional interrogation techniques, and taken as a whole increases our national security, even after considering the tremendous downside when it becomes known that we torture detainees
On this thread people are arguing that the release of the report detailing what we did will endanger U.S. personnel. Were the gains that no one can demonstrate about the effectiveness of torture worth the downside? Those are some of the relevant questions - also the moral questions are significant.
Another myth. The CIA's own internal documents state that waterboarding KSM was a fruitless endeavor.
I'm saying it does. KSM broke and told us what we wanted to know (and quite a bit more besides), and yet it wasn't what you described.
I'm telling you the testimony said none is it was like the real thing. Just a taste. Nothing more.Qq :roll:
I didn't because I didn't go to SERE C and so I wasn't waterboarded. However, I would like to meet the detainee who was kept up for 54 hours straight in extreme heat wearing extremely heavy weights and then shot at at the end of it as an interrogation technique. And I'll bet coming out of boot camp I could sit on a wall or hold a plank longer than the majority of them.
No. Senate Democrats claim this...
He talked to stop the waterboarding, correct? That's the point - to make it bad enough that even a hardened, committed enemy of the U.S., the baddest of the bad, admits to all kinds of things - he confessed to around 30 crimes as I recall - that he would otherwise NOT divulge. But you're saying it's not torture, just a bit uncomfortable? I can't connect the dots there.
And we prosecuted Japanese for engaging in torture - waterboarding - of U.S. soldiers. Now that we do it to others, it's NOT torture? Nice, conveniently evolving, standard.
I'm telling you the testimony said none is it was like the real thing. Just a taste. Nothing more.
:shrug: the two are not mutually contradicting. He counted off the seconds, he also broke and became extremely compliant.
Sure, and when what you want them to say is intelligence information, that is what they will give you.
:shrug: I've watched it get actionable intelligence that saved lives (probably including my own). We know that the Enhanced Interrogation Program also produced actionable intelligence that saved lives. Endless counterfactuals can be interesting, but aren't always helpful - senior VEO membership goes through resistance training the same as our guys, which rather hampers the ability of traditional interrogation techniques to produce valuable information. Which is why (for example) when they tried the nice guy approach with KSM prior to EIT, they got squat.
It is indeed relevant. Do you weigh risk to US personnel v the risk to Western civilians?
:yawn: keep clinging, boo. the exact same techniques were used as trained to.