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Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

Boo Radley said:
Oh hell, none of the techniques are secret. Hell they're old school Russian practices. Even ISIS know them and how ineffective they are. That's why they just kill.
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Not the techniques I was talking about.
 
Boo Radley said:
No, as I have said, this isn't new and I've given clear examples that are verifiable, that meet my standard, that show it gave us misinformation or no information and cost the live of an innocent person. Asking that they do the same isn't being unreasonable.
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The reports I referenced countered what you are claiming. It would seem your standard does not measure up to those who know far more than you or I.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
The u.s should hand over the responsible people to face justice at the Hauge because torture is a crime againist humanity.
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Should the Congress people that approved the enhanced interrogation also be sent for trial?
 
Dittohead not! said:
Who, indeed? And, just who will be running against her (or him, as the case may be)?

And, if the voters are watching (not likely) then the Democrats' strategy of blaming torture on the Republicans just could backfire. But, then again, the Republicans' strategy of blaming illegal immigration on the Democrats ought to backfire as well....

However, feeding the voters bull(bleep!) like that seems to be effective.
Maybe the sheeple are easily led
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And a great many are. Too many.

But Liz would be tough and have a LOT of media support to help smooth out the rough edges.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Perhaps that explains the timing of the release of the report.
I wonder how many Americans support having lied about it? I suppose that's just become expected.
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I think the majority of us expect our government to lie to us. We even support them in all the lies they tell by making excuses for them. We only become mad at all the lies if it is the other party, the one we do not support is doing the lying. Our party, we are fine with it and even get a good laugh out of it at times.

I had a poll in which stated only 6% of all Americans expect a candidate to keep their campaign promises. That is how low a bar we hold our government and elected officials too. Trust in government is around 25% today. I have that poll. We consider lying just part of our political systems and something the government does. No big thing.

Tomorrow this report will mean nothing unless something happens overseas and it will be replaced with another hot issue.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
To do thinking? Not the thought police here man. Analyzing over 6 million documents isnt "trying to do thinking for others".


Ohh i get it now. Americans should not know what we did, it should all be secret, secret. No need to show what we did to people. No need to show we tortued, and abused people. No need to show how inhuman we became after 9/11. No need for transparency, no need for public knowledge, no need to inform the electorate, no need to learn from history. Spoken like a true neo-con, wait he is a neo-con





Now thats funny.

4 year study analyzing 6 million documents isnt objective? Notice how the GOP leadership isnt saying that this study is "false" or anything along those lines they are playing the national security card.
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Looks like Feinstein her staff and the other Demos on the committee were.....huh?

In the minority report, it says that the majority report that Senator Feinstein released today includes indications of political consideration. Specifically, it says we found indications of political considerations within the study, for example, the study uses out of context quotes from certain minority members to suggest incorrectly that they supported certain positions taken by the study. The study omits additional comments by the same members which contradict the out of context statements.....snip~


I don't see where the Neo Con said American should not know. Could have released a report without any Major news coverage.....not like that's been done before, eh?

No need to show how inhuman we have become?
wtf20.gif


Uhm the GOP wrote up a Dissent. You do know what a dissent is.....correct?
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Let me put it context.

The terrorists use torture.

If we use the same indifference to humanity as the terrorists do, we are essentially no better then the enemy we are fighting.

In fact we are worse by claiming we represent the best of humanity.
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Terrorists drive pick up trucks, and so do people in Texas. Are they the same?
 
Boo Radley said:
You assume they need to get intel.

The point is, they are ignorant of these techniques. And they are no more effective for them.
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You said torture doesn't work, even ISIS knows this, and that's why they just kill people instead. The point of torture in this context, overwhelmingly obviously, is to gain intelligence. Otherwise, the point of torture is to cause harm, I suppose? And in that regard, it is very effective, don't you think?

You made a ridiculous assertion. At least this specific argument is bunk.
 
Dittohead not! said:
No form of torture should be deemed "acceptable".

Yes, look who we're dealing with. Evil people. Cockroaches. Let's not become like them by attempting to defeat them. The US has to be better than ISIS.
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What has always baffled me is that the US, rightfully at times, has used its military muscle to advance "freedom and democracy", but has in recent times has shown nothing but authoritarianism in that goal.

Sociologists and historians agree that the shift from being determined enemies by Japan and Germany, to good friends and allies was largely steeped in how America conquered. I had a great friend, a Japanese born gardener who was a child when McArthur's troops rolled through his suburb of Tokyo. They had lined the streets with make shift American flags in the hopes the conquerors would not behead the adults and eat their children as they had been taught. Instead, and he had tears in his eyes when he told me this, they stopped the trucks and began handing out rice! His family had been subsisting on rats.

Compare that to Abu-Graib, how the US 'conquered' Iraq and imposed an unwanted government.

Is it any wonder that those deserving of "freedom and democracy" are resisting it's implementation as presented by the current and previous administration?

Not having figured out who are the bad guys doesn't help. I suspect there are Afghans who might be wary since Al-Qaeda was killing them with American weapons.
 
MMC said:
Looks like Feinstein her staff and the other Demos on the committee were.....huh?
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Hmm soo gonna bring up the same point as the last two points without answering my question. So I will ask again below.. .

In the minority report, it says that the majority report that Senator Feinstein released today includes indications of political consideration. Specifically, it says we found indications of political considerations within the study, for example, the study uses out of context quotes from certain minority members to suggest incorrectly that they supported certain positions taken by the study. The study omits additional comments by the same members which contradict the out of context statements.....snip~
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""And what quotes are these? Any specifics?"

I don't see where the Neo Con said American should not know
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Of course he did. You even quoted him in post #271: "But you can still object to the conduct, you can still hold people accountable if you need to without releasing these kinds of sensational details". But he also goes on to say more that oyu did not quote: " Well, I’m dismayed that it’s being released... To me, it’s very counterproductive and harmful, and I’m deeply sorry that Senator Feinstein decided to release it.... you don’t have to release this report... I’m dismayed that it’s being released"

Could have released a report without any Major news coverage.....not like that's been done before, eh?
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Oh so now you are bummed out that the media is covering that we tortured people?

No need to show how inhuman we have become?
wtf20.gif
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So I get it. Oh it should of been flowers and pixie dust. No need to show that we actively and systematically tortured people. We dont need to know that. No need to inform the elctorate. No need for the free press to cover it, no need to show how the CIA lied to Congress, the American public, the judicial system. No need for all of that. :shock:

Uhm the GOP wrote up a Dissent. You do know what a dissent is.....correct?
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Yea. And your point being?
 
Could I suggest a grain of salt or perhaps a 2lb box of salt for this report. It may be true and it may not be true. Government information should always be taken with some salt. Since it didn't uncover anything I hadn't heard in the news in the past, I'll assume it is true. What we should be angry about is that the democrats on the senate committee spent $40 million for a report designed to embarrase the previous administration by uncovering nothing new. Pure partisan witch hunt. What a waste!
 
fmw said:
Could I suggest a grain of salt or perhaps a 2lb box of salt for this report. It may be true and it may not be true. Government information should always be taken with some salt. Since it didn't uncover anything I hadn't heard in the news in the past, I'll assume it is true. What we should be angry about is that the democrats on the senate committee spent $40 million for a report designed to embarrase the previous administration by uncovering nothing new. Pure partisan witch hunt. What a waste!
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And hypocritical too. Some of these same people had a different view when the CIA advised them of these techniques in detail back in 2002 and 2003.

Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002
 
Mason66 said:
Terrorists drive pick up trucks, and so do people in Texas. Are they the same?
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I'm afraid the answer from some here would be, "No, the Texans are worse." I drive a pick up truck in Virginia, and that just goes to show you exactly how pernicious and inumane ideologies expand exponentially.
 
tres borrachos said:
Which international community?
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Any group of countries whose governments believed that the GW Bush Administration did was wrong/in violation of international law. Think Nuremberg Trials after WWII. Not saying I agree with that, just saying that the findings from such a report could have international backlash.
 
Objective Voice said:
I here this claim alot mostly from those on the Right. So, I'm curious: What is your definition of "torture"?

I think alot of people consider torture exclusive as an act of causing severe pain to the body, i.e., bamboo sticks under finger nails, shock treatment and the like. But torture can also be construed as an act that causes extreme anguish to the body or the mind. As such, waterboarding, sleep deprivation, exposing a person to loud music for extended periods of time could all be considered forms of torture.

I think for many of us in the U.S., we're accustomed to the Rambo movies or imagines of Vietnam POWs where their feet are beaten w/thin bamboo sticks or are brutally beaten. I wonder if those who see torture exclusively this way would also consider a man or woman placed in a hot box laying out in the hot sun for hours to be a form of punishment or torture.

If you want to believe that torture is limited exclusively to those physical acts that cause pain to the body, then the so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques authorized by the GWB Administration isn't torture. But if you believe torture can include acts that inflict extreme anguish to the body or mind, then such acts would be torture as well.
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That is roughly the definition under the letter of law. maybe it is disingenuous to ignore the spirit of the law for the letter of the law of course both sides have done this many times on politically divisive actions. If thats what it take to prevent another 9/11 I can live with it.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Hmm soo gonna bring up the same point as the last two points without answering my question. So I will ask again below.. .


""And what quotes are these? Any specifics?"


Of course he did. You even quoted him in post #271: "But you can still object to the conduct, you can still hold people accountable if you need to without releasing these kinds of sensational details". But he also goes on to say more that oyu did not quote: " Well, I’m dismayed that it’s being released... To me, it’s very counterproductive and harmful, and I’m deeply sorry that Senator Feinstein decided to release it.... you don’t have to release this report... I’m dismayed that it’s being released"


Oh so now you are bummed out that the media is covering that we tortured people?


So I get it. Oh it should of been flowers and pixie dust. No need to show that we actively and systematically tortured people. We dont need to know that. No need to inform the elctorate. No need for the free press to cover it, no need to show how the CIA lied to Congress, the American public, the judicial system. No need for all of that. :shock:


Yea. And your point being?
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No one has quoted any Quotes Openly yet, other than the Republicans saying that and then signing the Dissent. That would be Chambliss and 5 others.

Why would one be bummed out over the concern for American Lives and the risk increased upon them. Why would any not be concerned for American lives and those who helped our people? Why would they just throw that out the window?

Did you forget there was a Judicial Inquiry? Who again was charged Criminally?


The Point of the Dissent was over one sided report and with which Feinstein clearly stated political considerations were taken into account.
 
MMC said:
No one has quoted any Quotes Openly yet, other than the Republicans saying that and then signing the Dissent. That would be Chambliss and 5 others.
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So essentially he is just saying something without in actual evidence. Just repeating what some in the GOP are saying without backing it up with any actual evidence.

Why would one be bummed out over the concern for American Lives and the risk increased upon them. Why would any not be concerned for American lives and those who helped our people? Why would they just throw that out the window?
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Never said you cant be concerned. Why do you think some military installations were put on a higher security level? But your reasoning to "why does the media have to cover this" is a little disturbing.

Did you forget there was a Judicial Inquiry? Who again was charged Criminally?
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What is this in response to?

The Point of the Dissent was over one sided report and with which Feinstein clearly stated political considerations were taken into account.
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I'm still waiting on these quotes that show that "political considerations were taken into account"...
 
TheDemSocialist said:
So essentially he is just saying something without in actual evidence. Just repeating what some in the GOP are saying without backing it up with any actual evidence.


Never said you cant be concerned. Why do you think some military installations were put on a higher security level? But your reasoning to "why does the media have to cover this" is a little disturbing.


What is this in response to?


I'm still waiting on these quotes that show that "political considerations were taken into account"...
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I guess when they produce their report then you will see what their differences is. Despite the dissent being part of that official record. I still don't hear you saying anything about the Demos one sided Report. Why you try to deflect in any direction possible that the Demos have a one sided report. That is lacking in substance.

Did you miss the part about the Centrist Repubs and Susan Collins?

Do you have a bipartisan report? Independent Report? Until then all you have is a report with what the Democrats thought what some Republicans meant, and then took it upon themselves to go with that as part of their findings.
 
ocean515 said:
The reports I referenced countered what you are claiming. It would seem your standard does not measure up to those who know far more than you or I.
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No, people claim they were successful. As it is their job, they have motivation to make that claim. But they did not support that claim or address rebuttals effectively.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
You said torture doesn't work, even ISIS knows this, and that's why they just kill people instead. The point of torture in this context, overwhelmingly obviously, is to gain intelligence. Otherwise, the point of torture is to cause harm, I suppose? And in that regard, it is very effective, don't you think?

You made a ridiculous assertion. At least this specific argument is bunk.
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In most cases it isn't to get intel. it's to get confessions, which it is very effective at getting. Even the innocent will confess. But the intel has always proven to be unreliable. All of the literature says this, and the evidence we have supports that it is unreliable. As I noted, al Libi gave us a lot. the trouble was none of it was true. we used it, made decisions based on it, and yet it was all false. Now that is a verifiable example.

I admit my humor isn't always seen, but there is nothing about torture that ISIS doesn't already know.
 
MMC said:
I guess when they produce their report then you will see what their differences is.
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So you are essentially holding something up as 100% fact without any actual evidence.

Despite the dissent being part of that official record. I still don't hear you saying anything about the Demos one sided Report.
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Because I dont think its one sided. Just because you dont like what it says, that it was released does not mean it was "one sided". Republicans on the committee had every opportunity to join in the investigation but refused to from the get go.

Why you try to deflect in any direction possible that the Demos have a one sided report. That is lacking in substance.
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6 million documents, 4 year investigation, and you say "no substance". How funny.

Did you miss the part about the Centrist Repubs and Susan Collins?
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What that she agreed that it constituted torture, you betcha.


Do you have a bipartisan report? Independent Report?
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Yup.
Here is one: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/w...E9297EAF90804EF3838AF469743D2FBA&gwt=pay&_r=0
Notice how it found many of the same conclusions...
Until then
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Well a study was released in 2013...

all you have is a report with what the Democrats thought what some Republicans meant,
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Uhhh.. No I have a report form 2013.
And "Thought what some Republicans meant"? What does this even mean. This is about the CIA and torture of detainees...

and then took it upon themselves to go with that as part of their findings.
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What is "that"?
 
Objective Voice said:
I don't think it will be the Obama Administration that will do anything. I think worst case, the International community will start demanding people from the GW Bush Administration be brought up on war crimes.
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Yeah, right. Who in the international community would that be? Don't forget to exclude all the countries that do real torture, everyday, to prisoners, just for the fun of it, including their own citizens. The left has this fictional dreamy thought of an elite, above all "international community" that will finally put the big bad USA in it's place. Get real. We are the greatest force for good that this planet has ever known. At least when we don't have cowards like Obama at the helm.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
So you are essentially holding something up as 100% fact without any actual evidence.


Because I dont think its one sided. Just because you dont like what it says, that it was released does not mean it was "one sided". Republicans on the committee had every opportunity to join in the investigation but refused to from the get go.


6 million documents, 4 year investigation, and you say "no substance". How funny.


What that she agreed that it constituted torture, you betcha.



Yup.
Here is one: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/w...E9297EAF90804EF3838AF469743D2FBA&gwt=pay&_r=0
Notice how it found many of the same conclusions...

Well a study was released in 2013...


Uhhh.. No I have a report form 2013.
And "Thought what some Republicans meant"? What does this even mean. This is about the CIA and torture of detainees...


What is "that"?
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Looks like you are attempting to hold up a one sided Democrat Political Report released to draw attention away from BO peep and the Demos failed policies.

Yet the Centrist Republicans you have no answer for.....not surprising.

Oh so they had an Independent report that these Democrats found pretty much the same exact findings. Yet this report was released why again? What policy did it change?

It still means Demo staffers taking footnotes and coming up with a conclusions for the Republicans as they have stated. Hence the terms political considerations.
 
MMC said:
Looks like you are attempting to hold up a one sided Democrat Political Report released to draw attention away from BO peep and the Demos failed policies.
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Ooops caught me :roll:
But lets move past the right wing talking points shall we?
You have claimed this report is specifically political, you upheld a neo-cons talking points. Then when asked to provide evidence/proof or anything to back up his claims that this report is misleading, politically opportunistic, and used misquotes, you couldnt find anything, jsut said "we gotta wait". So you are already holding up a conclusion without any evidence to back up said conlusion. Essentially you upheld one mans talking points to try to discredit a whole report that took 4 years to prepare and went through 6 million pages of documents. Now you are going with yet another talking point..

Yet the Centrist Republicans you have no answer for.....not surprising.
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Like Susan Colins? I already addressed that.


Oh so they had an Independent report that these Democrats found pretty much the same exact findings.
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"exact same"? Never said that.

Yet this report was released why again? What policy did it change?
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Mainly they didnt have access to the documents this Senate committee did. "While the task force did not have access to classified records, it is the most ambitious independent attempt to date to assess the detention and interrogation programs. A separate 6,000-page report on the Central Intelligence Agency’s record by the Senate Intelligence Committee, based exclusively on agency records, rather than interviews, remains classified."

It still means Demo staffers taking footnotes and coming up with a conclusions for the Republicans as they have stated.
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How did they "come up with conclusions for the Republicans"?

Hence the terms political considerations.
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Uhhh what are you even talking about now?
 
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