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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, not really. We were still there, still interveneing, and in general blowing up lots of people in the Middle East. Bound to produce some blowback. And when we got to blow up another sector of the ME, we just displace portions of terrorist groups to other places. We created the environment they thrive in.
    On the contrary - it seems as we pull back, we create vacuums, which other actors rush to fill.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary - it seems as we pull back, we create vacuums, which other actors rush to fill.
    That is why we need to establish a robust global system with a general system of security for populations is commonly upheld.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Hmmmm...then perhaps you might want to review this thread: http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...s-torture.html
    I don't support other countries charging our CIA staff for anything, sorry.

    Will it be a good thing when they charge Barack Obama for his drone attacks that are killing children, too?
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncensored2008 View Post
    The people you are responding to know exactly what it is, sadly, you do not.

    {Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.}


    Feel free to explain how the actions of the CIA bear any resemblance to treason? Or not, makes no real difference.
    I'll do that right after someone explains how oversight of the CIA and making those findings public is treason. I guess we need to start executing whistle blowers while we're at it too. After all, it's not what was done, it is that it was REVEALED that is the crime!

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Odd, isn't it, that their area of control exploded just as our interference reduced?
    I didn't realize this until another friend on mine posted it to another forum, so I can't take full credit.

    If you review the history of the 20th century, you'll find more instances where the US left after the military conflict, only to have something of greater evil raise up form the ashes.

    Post WW I bailed on Europe, the world got Hitler, Bolsheviks and other fascists came to rise and got WW II.
    We stood by as Japan raped Nanking and we got Perl Harbor.
    Post WW II we stayed in Europe, it flourished and is Democratic.
    We stayed in Japan, it flourished and is Democratic.
    We've stayed in Korea and Taiwan, there are prosperous and free people, and trusted allies.
    The Persian Civil War wasn't our problem, now we have radical Islamist all over.
    No Russians in Afghanistan, so not problem, the Taliban moved in, and attacked US soil from there.
    Now we are pretending that the Syrian Civil War and the unrest in the Pakistan frontier are not our problem.
    What do you think is going to happen next?

    That in itself does also substantiate that the US is a noble force of good on the planet, more so than anything that the left can say and uses to denigrate the nation.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But we can't, at least not with anything like solid evidence. That's been Boo's point over and over and he's right.
    I've cited for Boo the multiple times that that program did, in fact, produce actionable intelligence that saved lives. Thus far his point has been that you can't disprove the counterfactual (that we couldn't have produced that intelligence via other means); which is to say, it raises an impossible burden of proof, to take all possible futures and demonstrate their falsity. So he's right only to the extent that you are willing to accept a standard that denies all possibility of knowledge.

    Well then maybe the CIA should talk to them, so they can share the success stories with journalists and Congress.
    unlikely. they're the "quiet" professionals, contra some of our SEALs. But the CIA would know who they are, and where to find them. They're the CIA, after all.

    I'm not making a partisan argument - haven't mentioned parties a single time. But since you've brought it up, where are the civil liberties GOPers? Or is torture a new right for libertarians - what could go wrong making torture a tool of government. Hey, small and limited and free to torture if the ends are just!!
    It was Senate Democrat Bob Kerrey, formerly of the Intelligence Subcommittee, who stated that the report was partisan hackery rather than an attempt to produce something that would lead to better governance. Additionally, Democrat-appointed and Democrat-approved CIA leadership have pointed to the reports multiple falsities and it's unwillingness to gather all the relevant data. Perhaps you should take that up with them.

    As for the GOPers It's interesting - ole Rand Paul has been pretty quiet thus far on this.

    The obvious answer is that lots can go wrong with the EIT program - specifically the normalization that George Freidman spoke of. The countering program is that Lots MORE can go wrong with a nation that takes those tools off the table. It's the strategic mirror to the overly restrictive ROE's that put our troops in danger downrange.

    I've tried to find the evidence and other than bare assertions, haven't located it.
    So.. other than bipartisan testimony from those who would be in a position to know, we don't have any evidence? What evidence are you looking for?

    It's more than that - the cases cited as proof all have huge holes in them and are at best thin evidence. So why the vigorous assertions that there is all this compelling evidence? It's not the cases we know about, so what alternative can you come up with except that there are cases we do NOT know about?
    To simply discredit the uniform, bipartisan testimony from those who would be in a position to know as they provide specifics as "at best thin evidence" I'll admit, I don't get. Are you looking for some kind of reversal of courtroom rules - prove their innocence beyond all shadow of a doubt?

    Of course, human rights aren't restricted to Americans. If so they're not human rights, but rights of U.S. citizens, and we're a long way from "we hold these truths...all men" to "some men, if they are U.S. born or became citizens, have some rights unless we determine that stripping them produces a short term benefit...."
    Yup. For example, we're willing to strip the rights of our citizens when we Draft them. And we are willing to choose to protect the rights of our citizens over the rights of the citizens of other nations, especially when it is those foreign citizens who are placing our own at risk and setting up the conflict in the first place.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary - it seems as we pull back, we create vacuums, which other actors rush to fill.
    Yes, that's a reason not to run around making vacuums. And that doesn't mean that we should constantly have imperial troops everywhere. We made a vacuum, then occupied the space ourselves. But we cannot do this for infinity, or rather our infinity war requires that we move about to engage other actors. When we do, because we made the vacuum in the first place, because we do not try to solve issues, because we're moving about in the area to engage other theaters, naturally we leave behind environments ideal for breeding terrorism.

    But it's clear, we cannot keep up this style of intervention and solve the issue.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    What could go wrong with the death penalty as a tool of government? Oh wait.....that's totally legal, and never used on a mass scale in the US.

    I'm just surprised that small government libertarians in the GOP are wanting the "State" to have essentially unchecked powers that touch on the most basic civil liberties. You're a 'conservative' and likely at heart an authoritarian, so I'm not surprised you'd support torture as a tool available to government against people-not-like-you, but I don't actually expect that from libertarian types.

    FWIW, I'm also opposed to the death penalty for many reasons, but as it's practiced in the U.S., as flawed as it is, there are pretty important checks and balances in the system. With torture and the like, it's asserted to be (at least this was what Bush asserted) a power vested in one person - the POTUS/CIC or his delegates, and not limited by Congress or the Courts. Quite a fundamental difference, so your attempted analogy is also a FAIL.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm just surprised that small government libertarians in the GOP are wanting the "State" to have essentially unchecked powers that touch on the most basic civil liberties. You're a 'conservative' and likely at heart an authoritarian, so I'm not surprised you'd support torture as a tool available to government against people-not-like-you, but I don't actually expect that from libertarian types.

    FWIW, I'm also opposed to the death penalty for many reasons, but as it's practiced in the U.S., as flawed as it is, there are pretty important checks and balances in the system. With torture and the like, it's asserted to be (at least this was what Bush asserted) a power vested in one person - the POTUS/CIC or his delegates, and not limited by Congress or the Courts. Quite a fundamental difference, so your attempted analogy is also a FAIL.
    Those people "not like me" happen to be enemies, dude. Actually I'm somewhat libertarian, but mostly conservative. Nevertheless, everyone apparently acted upon the opinion that it was legal under all applicable rules. Given that, and their urge to spare the country another 9/11 attack, I can see how this interrogation method seemed viable. One could also argue that sending out troops in to bomb and kill people is also a war crime. So how far do you want to go with it? Three people got waterboarded in a war. Many more were actually killed. Keep a perspective.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'll do that right after someone explains how oversight of the CIA and making those findings public is treason. I guess we need to start executing whistle blowers while we're at it too. After all, it's not what was done, it is that it was REVEALED that is the crime!
    So, you respond by building a straw man? Figures.

    The actions of Feinstein, et al. come close to treason in that they give aid and comfort to the the enemy, to wit, ISIS and Al Qaeda. Reread the law and see if you can grasp why this borders on treason?

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