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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Killing people with drones may get some of the terrorists, but it just creates more.
    that's an interesting claim. Can you demonstrate that drone strikes create more VEO members than they kill?

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Just summarize one point for me: are you saying that we should treat terrorist, who we've labeled not as military combatants and in fact have pushed hard not to, as POW's?
    No, I am saying that terrorists are not a protected class of POW and instead fall into the category of saboteurs and non-uniformed combatants.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Again, you miss the point I was making.

    The 'ends justifies the means' criticism is not only applicable to the enhanced interrogation methods. Criticism of this method of doing things extends to the ObamaCare equally well, if you consider how tortured the bills language and how tortured the process with which it was passed.

    I'm criticizing that method of operation. Not making a comparison between EIMs and ObamaCare.

    With your willful ignoring of this point, I can only assume that liberal / progressives using 'the ends justifies the means' is perfect acceptable to you, however, when others use the same, it's totally objectionable. Rather inconsistent, I'd say.

    I'd further add that a cost / benefit analysis is not the same thing as adopting 'the ends justifies the means' method of operation.
    What's the difference? If a person has an "ends justify the means" mentality, all it implies is that person disregards the means in their decision. Which is what you're doing with torture - hey, it works, so ergo we should/must do it if the ends are just/large, etc!! Keep us safe!!

    I've never read or seen any legitimate supporter of ACA pretend that it has no downsides, i.e. the ends justified any means. If that was the attitude, we'd have universal healthcare for all, and just raised taxes to whatever level required to pay for it, etc. That didn't happen - there were 1000 compromises, which are nothing more than weighting the ends - full coverage for every American - with the means required to reach that goal.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that's an interesting claim. Can you demonstrate that drone strikes create more VEO members than they kill?
    Heheh, yeah I'm sure that's a metric we track. Though for.decades now we've been intervening in the middle east, and terrorist organizations seems stronger than ever. So I guess we can say all the.bombing and intervention hasn't done anything to curb the tide of terrorism.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncensored2008 View Post
    How indeed..

    {“The fact that the policies revealed in this report were authorized at a high level within the U.S. government provides no excuse whatsoever,” Emmerson said in a statement. “Indeed, it reinforces the need for criminal accountability.”
    He added that as a signatory to the U.N. Convention Against Torture, the U.S. is legally obligated to prosecute acts of torture and enforced disappearance if there is sufficient evidence to to bring about a case.
    International law does not permit individuals who carried out torture to dismiss liability because they were acting on orders. And, Emmerson said, “States are not free to maintain or permit impunity for these grave crimes.”}

    Horrors Of Torture Report Could Mean International Legal Cases Against Participants | ThinkProgress
    Well, if the crimes create legal issues and potential prosecutions of the persons who perpetrated alleged crimes, then the persons to blame are those who engaged in illegal acts not those who revealed them.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncensored2008 View Post
    When the messenger bears such a striking resemblance to Josef Goebbels, that seems an appropriate response.
    Great, a Nazi reference - always a great way to encourage rational debate!!

    This would work better if you had some clue what treason actually is.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Circular logic - I could make the same argument about Senate Democrats.

    This isn't a unitary CIA saying this - it is political appointees from both Parties who have been put in charge of the CIA over the course of more than a decade saying this.
    I really don't know how to respond. Neither of us is privy to classified information on the level required to evaluate whether torture 'worked' or not. But what I know are some people who I respect and with excellent civil liberties records haven't been convinced by the CIA that the torture of those we know about has produced intelligence sufficient to justify its use. What I suspect is the program is wider than we know, that many cases can't be revealed because they are classified or unknown to anyone but the spooks, and some of those may have produced the kind of intelligence that allows CIA leaders to justify its use. So it's deception on another level. But from the cases we know the evidence is VERY thin.

    But the bigger issue is of course torture 'works' in that those subjected to it will talk and of course some of what they say surely will be useful at some point. It doesn't tell us if torture, all things considered, improves or degrades national security versus alternatives. But if "it works" is the key decision, let's get on with it and just admit that we don't mean a lot of what we say about human rights, and are willing to throw the ideals overboard when it suits us or might be beneficial.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    What's the difference? If a person has an "ends justify the means" mentality, all it implies is that person disregards the means in their decision. Which is what you're doing with torture - hey, it works, so ergo we should/must do it if the ends are just/large, etc!! Keep us safe!!

    I've never read or seen any legitimate supporter of ACA pretend that it has no downsides, i.e. the ends justified any means. If that was the attitude, we'd have universal healthcare for all, and just raised taxes to whatever level required to pay for it, etc. That didn't happen - there were 1000 compromises, which are nothing more than weighting the ends - full coverage for every American - with the means required to reach that goal.
    When you consider all the deceit all along the way, during ObamaCare's structuring, developing, writing (tortured language), selling and passing, yeah, I really do think it was a case of 'the ends justifies the means' mentality taken over all common sense and sensibilities, and integrity for that matter.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    When you consider all the deceit all along the way, during ObamaCare's structuring, developing, writing (tortured language), selling and passing, yeah, I really do think it was a case of 'the ends justifies the means' mentality taken over all common sense and sensibilities, and integrity for that matter.
    I disagree, but that's fine, let's have that discussion for the 100th time on an ACA thread. It has no business here - there are no equivalents between this discussion about interrogation and torture and war and the ACA.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    And the black sites?
    Also facilities run by US personnel, being interrogated by trained US personnel? I mean, if you want to talk rendition, then that's fine - but it's a different (though related) topic.

    You're committed to ignoring the fundamental difference of having your fellow soldiers controlling your fate versus your sworn enemy, in a hostile environment, in a foreign land.
    Not really. There's a psychological difference between SERE and captivity where you might actually be executed (as we face), although they put a lot of effort and do a pretty good job of ensuring that that will be reduced as much as possible. Your brain is pretty much fried during the course of SERE. But that division (our soldiers will probably not execute or torture you) is not what imputes the definition of "torture".

    I guess I'll admit defeat. Orwell has won, and we've redefined the word 'torture' as EIT and can now pretend that it's something else.
    Words have meaning, and that is important.

    Right, because being held by your enemies is just like being held by your fellow soldiers.... Give me a break. You don't even believe that.
    I'm not saying "just like". I'm saying that the distinction you are highlighting does not impute the definition of torture.

    I see, so now it WAS a crime.
    No. Would have been a crime had we done it to members of a military who fought in uniform.

    That's a different claim than before, but even with the change in position, all you're doing is hiding behind legal niceties.
    Laws are important. For example, we are also only supposed to ask uniformed members of a military what their name, rank, etc. is; would you support a detainee interrogation program that only asked for that information?

    Was rectal feeding an authorized interrogation technique? Hypothermia?
    Rectal Feeding is a form of tube-feeding, which has long been used to force those who go on hunger strikes to stay alive. Being cold, yup, is also an interrogation technique. So is being hot, and having loud exceedingly annoying music played on loop for hours.

    So, if the WH or CIA can get its lawyers to fit something in a legal box, we are expected to say, "Well, it's legal, so we should do it. QED."
    No. "Lawful"=/="Wise" or "Moral". But if it does not meet the definition of torture, then it is not - actually - torture. You can argue that the EIT program was wrong, you can argue that it was unwise, but it does not meet the threshold of torture for the simple reason that we went to great lengths to make sure we never crossed that line.

    EIT.... As I've said, we do need to have an honest discussion about what happened and learn from it. We can't do that by burying our heads in the sand about what we did.
    Sure. I would agree.

    Doing something that is intended to prevent someone from getting oxygen to their brain, induce panic, stop breathing, is fundamentally different than driving a car or shooting on a range - you're not even trying to have an honest conversation now.
    ... trying hard not to simply return the favor and accuse you of projecting, but you were arguing that the factor of the presence of medical personnel indicated that the actions being taken were torturous. The multiple, obviously non-torturous activities that also require the factor of the presence of medical personnel are pretty germane to that question.

    Brilliant point. I suppose we should be applauded for 'just' subjecting our detainees to torture.
    No, the premise of that statement is incorrect. We have put them up into a pretty nice facility. The Gitmo prisoners have gained weight - most of them were gaunt and undernourished when captured. Now they have the best healthcare they've had in their lives, etc.

    The point isn't to say that getting access to a dentist "makes up" for being forced to stand half-naked in a chilly room until you told us what you knew about current attack planning, but merely to point out that these people do not enjoy the protections afforded to uniformed military members in a conflict. Even the non-controversial interrogation techniques are not supposed to be used on uniformed military members captured during conflict.

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