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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You, dearest, are operating in an alternative universe, the very soap opera you earlier rejected, you have created a black and white world.....all in an attempt to justify your belief in torture.
    Awww, aint that sweet. We can understand you not wanting to show those true colors.

    Now my lil affectionate one, you know Nana says that if you afraid to play the game. Then there is no reason for you to be in it.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, how does the information get released without "sensationalizing" it?

    And if ISIS cuts of heads because it was revealed that we waterboarded people, which the world already knew, then the problem isn't the revelation but the act.
    How indeed..

    {“The fact that the policies revealed in this report were authorized at a high level within the U.S. government provides no excuse whatsoever,” Emmerson said in a statement. “Indeed, it reinforces the need for criminal accountability.”
    He added that as a signatory to the U.N. Convention Against Torture, the U.S. is legally obligated to prosecute acts of torture and enforced disappearance if there is sufficient evidence to to bring about a case.
    International law does not permit individuals who carried out torture to dismiss liability because they were acting on orders. And, Emmerson said, “States are not free to maintain or permit impunity for these grave crimes.”}

    Horrors Of Torture Report Could Mean International Legal Cases Against Participants | ThinkProgress

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Well, thanks for that. No need to take your views seriously when you're so obviously partisan.
    Did I question the motives of the GLORIOUS PEOPLES PARTY?

    lol.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    That's pants-fryingly absurd.
    Oh? What do you see as the motive of the GLORIOUS PEOPLES PARTY in this? As pointed out, other than the ThinkProgress crowd, Americans don't much care. So why did the democrats drop this little turd in the punch bowl?

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm not following the point. We also lynched people back then.
    You are the one arguing that waterboarding was considered a crime until 2002. I am pointing out you're ignorant or using bad sources or both.


    I'm not "the left" and I don't see anyone calling themselves "the left" in this thread.
    In this thread you are taking the common argument of the Left so for now, here it is a distinction without a difference.

    If someone somewhere other than in this discussion is using the execution of a very few Japanese as the example, bring it up with them. I've referred only to the low level grunts we prosecuted, and who along with our allies sent thousands to jail for crimes including waterboarding - i.e. torture.
    No, as I pointed out, there were strict rules for interrogations of lawful combatant POWs. Among other things the use of various forms of EIT were illegal for use on this classification of POW. So anyone who was brought up on charges of waterboarding were indicted on those guidelines.

    And as I've said, if the legal issue is the big question, then let's all get our our code, case books, treaties and start citing that instead of discussing the moral issue, or how well torture might work. It's probably legal in dictatorships and in those countries that don't sign onto our civilized treaties.
    THese civilized treaties you speak of were meant to ensure that enemy combatants wore uniforms so as to differentiate them from the civilian population. If you fought fair and differentiated yourself from civilians you were to be awarded a level of protection while in custody including not being subjected to harsh interrogations. The Japanese did not follow these protocols and in cases like the Bataan death march proved themselves to be subhuman in their treatment of POWs and in the case of the Rape of Nanking showed to be just generally animals.

    Bottom line is whether the lawyers create a legal box to put torture into when we want to do it is a moot point for this discussion.
    No, the point is that you are miss-characterizing the War Crimes trials of Japanese soldiers to try and fit them to your ideology. The reality of why these people were put on trial has more to do with the protections they were required to extend POWs, and does nothing to prove your assertion that it shows we thought all waterboarding was criminal.

    For instance, a Japaneses soldier couldn't be tried in a military court for murder for shooting a US soldier during the course of a battle. But if he shot a US soldier who was a POW he would be hanged. The reason it is a crime has more to do with the setting than the act.
    Last edited by jmotivator; 12-11-14 at 03:24 PM.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Consequentialism is the class of normative ethical theories holding that the consequences of one's conduct are the ultimate basis for any judgment about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct. Thus, from a consequentialist standpoint, a morally right act (or omission from acting) is one that will produce a good outcome, or consequence. In an extreme form, the idea of consequentialism is commonly encapsulated in the English saying, "the ends justify the means",[1] meaning that if a goal is morally important enough, any method of achieving it is acceptable.[2]
    Consequentialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Most certainly is not the same as

    Cost–benefit analysis (CBA), sometimes called benefit–cost analysis (BCA), is a systematic approach to estimating the strengths and weaknesses of alternatives that satisfy transactions, activities or functional requirements for a business. It is a technique that is used to determine options that provide the best approach for the adoption and practice in terms of benefits in labor, time and cost savings etc. (David, Ngulube and Dube, 2013). The CBA is also defined as a systematic process for calculating and comparing benefits and costs of a project, decision or government policy (hereafter, "project").
    Broadly, CBA has two purposes:

    1. To determine if it is a sound investment/decision (justification/feasibility),
    2. To provide a basis for comparing projects. It involves comparing the total expected cost of each option against the total expected benefits, to see whether the benefits outweigh the costs, and by how much.[1]

    CBA is related to, but distinct from cost-effectiveness analysis. In CBA, benefits and costs are expressed in monetary terms, and are adjusted for the time value of money, so that all flows of benefits and flows of project costs over time (which tend to occur at different points in time) are expressed on a common basis in terms of their "net present value."
    Closely related, but slightly different, formal techniques include cost-effectiveness analysis, cost–utility analysis, risk–benefit analysis, economic impact analysis, fiscal impact analysis, and Social return on investment (SROI) analysis.
    Cost–benefit analysis


    Consequentialism is the 'dam the torpedos, full speed ahead', where as the cost-benefit analysis more certainly isn't that. Should the CBA come out and not make sense, the action won't be taken. Consequentialism attempts to justify incorrect, improper, abusing means for getting something done, none of which should be viewed as acceptable, especially in the arena of public policy, legislation and regulation.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    You are the one arguing that waterboarding was considered a crime until 2002. I am pointing out your are ignorant or using bad sources or both.




    In this thread you are taking the common argument of the Left so for now, here it is a distinction without a difference.



    No, as I pointed out, there were strict rules for interrogations of lawful combatant POWs. Among other things the use of various forms of EIT were illegal for use on this classification of POW. So anyone who was brought up on charges of waterboarding were indicted on those guidelines.



    THese civilized treaties you speak of were meant to ensure that enemy combatants wore uniforms so as to differentiate them from the civilian population. If you fought fair and differentiated yourself from civilians you were to be awarded a level of protection while in custody including not being subjected to harsh interrogations. The Japanese did not follow these protocols and in cases like the Bataan death march proved themselves to be subhuman in their treatment of POWs and in the case of the Rape of Nanking showed to be just generally animals.



    No, the point is that you are miss-characterizing the War Crimes trials of Japanese soldiers to try and fit them to your ideology. The reality of why these people were put on trial has more to do with the protections they were required to extend POWs, and does nothing to prove your assertion that it shows we thought all waterboarding was criminal.

    For instance, a Japaneses soldier couldn't be tried in a military court for murder for shooting a US soldier during the course of a battle. But if he shot a US soldier who was a POW he would be hanged. The reason it is a crime has more to do with the setting than the act.
    Just summarize one point for me: are you saying that we should treat terrorist, who we've labeled not as military combatants and in fact have pushed hard not to, as POW's?

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    As I recall, ISIS and AQ were active, and killing Americans, long before the Democrats released the report.

    And you're still shooting the messenger.
    When the messenger bears such a striking resemblance to Josef Goebbels, that seems an appropriate response.

    If it's treason to reveal what happened, surely the acts revealed were also treasonous.
    This would work better if you had some clue what treason actually is.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The problem is the CIA has a history of self serving lies, over many years, with regard to the program and its results. So the defense is "The CIA says the CIA got great info from using the waterboard, ergo, we must conclude that the information about the awesomeness of CIA actions verified by CIA is correct!"
    Circular logic - I could make the same argument about Senate Democrats.

    This isn't a unitary CIA saying this - it is political appointees from both Parties who have been put in charge of the CIA over the course of more than a decade saying this.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncensored2008 View Post
    When the messenger bears such a striking resemblance to Josef Goebbels, that seems an appropriate response.
    thank you for demonstrating the intellectual vacuity of your position.

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