Page 54 of 82 FirstFirst ... 444525354555664 ... LastLast
Results 531 to 540 of 816

Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

  1. #531
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Chicago Illinois
    Last Seen
    10-14-15 @ 09:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    56,981

    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The question whether our government has the green light for torture (if it works perhaps) is far more than 'hyped morality.' It gets to a core value of the country.
    Yes for them, it is more than touting morality. Not so much for leftists of the common denominator.

    Besides this issue here.....what else do we do that shows the core value of the Country?

  2. #532
    Sage


    eohrnberger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    24,952
    Blog Entries
    11

    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    I always find it amusing that folks like yourself will double down on lost arguments by comparing the success of the PPACA to torture.

    Reductio ad absurdum.
    That's a straw man, or you didn't understand in the least, or more likely you didn't want to under stand.

    Claiming the enhanced interrogation methods justification was and example of 'the ends justifies the means', the parallel I'm drawing is that it's the same 'the ends justifies the means' applied to ObamaCare.

    Think about it.

    Either 'the ends justifies the means' is not the way to do things, or it is. If not, both the enhanced interrogation methods and ObamaCare are on shaky ground, and if so, then both are on more solid ground, at least from the justification / mentality aspect.
    the Fix-is-in Bureau of Investigation

  3. #533
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Chicago Illinois
    Last Seen
    10-14-15 @ 09:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    56,981

    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    It is an absurd assumption, it is the stuff of "soap operas".......and it is still all a desperate attempt to justify torture.
    There are only two choices.....saving lives or torturing a terrorist. There is no middle ground with which you are looking for. You certainly can say I don't want to play that way, but that's the way it is. There is no other option.....well, there is one other and that would be to run away from the hard choice to make.

  4. #534
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    21,853

    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Well, the premise of that statement is false. Waterboarding was known as "The Third Degree" in common parlance in the 1930s and 1940s (and the origin of the phrase "giving him the third degree"). It was only removed from fuse n domestic policing in the 1940s, but says nothing of its legal use in the military against saboteurs and non-uniformed combatants.
    I'm not following the point. We also lynched people back then. And....

    And no, we don't. In both cases the use has to be warranted. It is SOMETIMES warranted to kill a person in wartime but that doesn't mean it is warranted at all times to kill people in war time. Likewise the use of EIT is not warranted in all cases because it is war time, but that doesn't mean it is always unwarranted in wartime.
    It's just a long way around the question.

    Also, the left is trying to use Japanese interrogation methods and the Japanese War crime Tribunals as evidence that the US saw waterboarding as a capital offense after WWII... but this is more abject stupidity. Nobody was hung for waterboarding. When a Japanese defendant was sentenced to be executed the sentence was for, in all case, atrocities they had committed during the war such as the Rape of Nanking. Some were given prison sentences for using waterboarding but that was because waterboarding was outlawed for use on POWs who qualified for GC protections.
    I'm not "the left" and I don't see anyone calling themselves "the left" in this thread. If someone somewhere other than in this discussion is using the execution of a very few Japanese as the example, bring it up with them. I've referred only to the low level grunts we prosecuted, and who along with our allies sent thousands to jail for crimes including waterboarding - i.e. torture.

    And as I've said, if the legal issue is the big question, then let's all get our our code, case books, treaties and start citing that instead of discussing the moral issue, or how well torture might work. It's probably legal in dictatorships and in those countries that don't sign onto our civilized treaties. And....

    Bottom line is whether the lawyers create a legal box to put torture into when we want to do it is a moot point for this discussion.

  5. #535
    Sage
    Gimmesometruth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    US Southwest
    Last Seen
    09-13-17 @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,405

    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    There are only two choices.....saving lives or torturing a terrorist. [There is no middle ground with which you are looking for. You certainly can say I don't want to play that way, but that's the way it is. There is no other option.....well, there is one other and that would be to run away from the hard choice to make.
    You, dearest, are operating in an alternative universe, the very soap opera you earlier rejected, you have created a black and white world.....all in an attempt to justify your belief in torture.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  6. #536
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    21,853

    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    That's a straw man, or you didn't understand in the least, or more likely you didn't want to under stand.

    Claiming the enhanced interrogation methods justification was and example of 'the ends justifies the means', the parallel I'm drawing is that it's the same 'the ends justifies the means' applied to ObamaCare.

    Think about it.

    Either 'the ends justifies the means' is not the way to do things, or it is. If not, both the enhanced interrogation methods and ObamaCare are on shaky ground, and if so, then both are on more solid ground, at least from the justification / mentality aspect.
    Every single policy question of any significance whatsoever requires determining if the "ends justify the means." Every single one. You're grasping at very wispy straws there.

  7. #537
    Sage


    eohrnberger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    24,952
    Blog Entries
    11

    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Every single policy question of any significance whatsoever requires determining if the "ends justify the means." Every single one. You're grasping at very wispy straws there.
    And here I was thinking that 'the ends justifies the means' is very much the wrong way to go about creating and passing public policy, legislation, and regulation.

    With the 'ends justifies the means' mentality, you very easily, far too easily, get government abuse of power and government overreach. None of which is really the correct and proper way to get things done.
    the Fix-is-in Bureau of Investigation

  8. #538
    Sage
    Gimmesometruth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    US Southwest
    Last Seen
    09-13-17 @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,405

    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    That's a straw man, or you didn't understand in the least, or more likely you didn't want to under stand.

    Claiming the enhanced interrogation methods justification was and example of 'the ends justifies the means', the parallel I'm drawing is that it's the same 'the ends justifies the means' applied to ObamaCare.

    Think about it.

    Either 'the ends justifies the means' is not the way to do things, or it is. If not, both the enhanced interrogation methods and ObamaCare are on shaky ground, and if so, then both are on more solid ground, at least from the justification / mentality aspect.
    All one can do when someone presents an absurd comparison (torture is to mandatory HI as is information is to reduced noncoverge)....is to point out the absurdity of the comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  9. #539
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    21,853

    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    And here I was thinking that 'the ends justifies the means' is very much the wrong way to go about creating and passing public policy, legislation, and regulation.

    With the 'ends justifies the means' mentality, you very easily, far too easily, get government abuse of power and government overreach. None of which is really the correct and proper way to get things done.
    It's not right or wrong, it's just how public policy decisions are made. Pick a policy choice, any policy choice, and there is some weighing of the benefits/ends versus the costs/means.

    If you want to make a proper analogy and draw equivalencies between the means required to implement ACA and torture, that would be good.
    Last edited by JasperL; 12-11-14 at 03:10 PM.

  10. #540
    Sage


    eohrnberger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    24,952
    Blog Entries
    11

    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    All one can do when someone presents an absurd comparison (torture is to mandatory HI as is information is to reduced noncoverge)....is to point out the absurdity of the comparison.
    Again, you miss the point I was making.

    The 'ends justifies the means' criticism is not only applicable to the enhanced interrogation methods. Criticism of this method of doing things extends to the ObamaCare equally well, if you consider how tortured the bills language and how tortured the process with which it was passed.

    I'm criticizing that method of operation. Not making a comparison between EIMs and ObamaCare.

    With your willful ignoring of this point, I can only assume that liberal / progressives using 'the ends justifies the means' is perfect acceptable to you, however, when others use the same, it's totally objectionable. Rather inconsistent, I'd say.

    I'd further add that a cost / benefit analysis is not the same thing as adopting 'the ends justifies the means' method of operation.
    the Fix-is-in Bureau of Investigation

Page 54 of 82 FirstFirst ... 444525354555664 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •