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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Uh huh...so they were all just innocent men in the wrong place at the wrong time, is that your assertion? Look, am I saying that some things that were wrong didn't happen? No. But am I all torn up that some guys that had intel were not allowed their beauty sleep, or were smacked around? Absolutely not. They and their cohorts do much worse.
    Well, we're getting closer. From "yelled at" to "smacked around" is progress. Now, let's see if we can get to "tortured and killed".

    And yes, at least some of them were innocent victims. Daliwal was one of them.

    Maybe once the public recognizes what actually took place, we can put the past behind us.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The point is we've sanctioned waterboarding as a LEGITIMATE interrogation tool.
    For people who can also legitimately be executed out of hand.
    Hah, yeah, it's amazing that people don't see the difference.

    Their thought process appears to be like an Onion headline: "12 Al Qaeda Leaders spared from being waterboarded through the use of Tomahawk Missile"
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    IMO, this about two things. How far are we willing to go to save lives, particularly our own? And whatever our interrogation techniques are, should we be broadcasting that information to the world?

    Seems the democrats in Congress are not willing to go very far at all. In fact, they are much more concerned with getting votes and doing harm to republicans than protecting the people of this country, as evidenced by them releasing this report.

    It's a one sided report, guaranteed to give the results they wanted. Completely refuted by the ex CIA heads. Does it help this country in any way? Does it make us safer? No, on both counts. We are less safe.

    All it does is take a shot at those that actually do protect us, and deserve medals for such, before the democrats are officially thrown out of leadership, per the will of the people.

    On the second question, that's just plain obvious. It's a stupid and politically selfish act by the democrats. I guess they didn't get the message in the last election. Shut up and get out!
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Well, we're getting closer. From "yelled at" to "smacked around" is progress. Now, let's see if we can get to "tortured and killed".

    And yes, at least some of them were innocent victims. Daliwal was one of them.

    Maybe once the public recognizes what actually took place, we can put the past behind us.
    So in your view Obama and Holder are war criminals of a higher order. Obama has called for hundreds of drone strikes that killed many folks much more than the senate report talks about. It also killed at least one American citizen without a trial.

    None of this is good. But the political grandstanding by both sides is sickening.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    So in your view Obama and Holder are war criminals of a higher order. Obama has called for hundreds of drone strikes that killed many folks much more than the senate report talks about. It also killed at least one American citizen without a trial.

    None of this is good. But the political grandstanding by both sides is sickening.
    I agree with most of that. If Obama and Holder are "war criminals", then so were most of their predecessors. I'm not so sure we really want to go there.

    But, the fact of the matter is both parties are complicit in these violations of human rights, and the only reason they're coming out now is because of political grandstanding. It's the default position when the (bleep!) hits the fan: Point fingers at the other party.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Well, we're getting closer. From "yelled at" to "smacked around" is progress. Now, let's see if we can get to "tortured and killed".

    And yes, at least some of them were innocent victims. Daliwal was one of them.

    Maybe once the public recognizes what actually took place, we can put the past behind us.
    But you only seem to go back to the same guy over and over, then try to represent that there were more. You don't know that, plus its quite dishonest.

    Now, I'll ask you the same question I asked Joe...Do you support the current administration using drones?
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    What do you think the people brought to Gitmo were in? A US facility, with trained US personnel.
    And the black sites?

    You're committed to ignoring the fundamental difference of having your fellow soldiers controlling your fate versus your sworn enemy, in a hostile environment, in a foreign land.

    :raises eyebrow: who told you that? SERE is a scheduled course - you are on that train until the training evolution ends. I can't think of a single time when I was being put through stress positions where "I'm too exhausted to hold this position any more" was considered an excuse.

    However, if a detainee begins to give up valuable information, EIT also stopped.
    I guess I'll admit defeat. Orwell has won, and we've redefined the word 'torture' as EIT and can now pretend that it's something else.

    I don't see the difference that you are trying to draw. I wouldn't say I'm determined to ignore it, I think you are attempting to create it.
    Right, because being held by your enemies is just like being held by your fellow soldiers.... Give me a break. You don't even believe that.

    Yeah - and had we done it to (for example) uniformed Iraqi soldiers during OIF-1, then that would also have been a crime.
    I see, so now it WAS a crime. That's a different claim than before, but even with the change in position, all you're doing is hiding behind legal niceties.

    That's an interesting charge. Can you demonstrate that the CIA violated the limits put on it by the Justice Department? Because that could lead to a legitimate case of torture occurring.
    Was rectal feeding an authorized interrogation technique? Hypothermia?

    Torture has defined legal meaning, it's not "what we think is mean".
    So, if the WH or CIA can get its lawyers to fit something in a legal box, we are expected to say, "Well, it's legal, so we should do it. QED." What difference does that make to this discussion - if that's the issue, then let's start citing case law and U.S. Code, and the UTMJ, etc.

    Not at all - EIT is still abusive, it's still questionable, and it's still the kind of thing you reserve only for the most extreme circumstances. I think where he is spot-on here is on the issues of A) post-9/11 need and B) the risk of bureaucratization and normalization. EIT is still something we would have to morally wrestle with, even without defining torture broadly enough to include it.
    EIT.... As I've said, we do need to have an honest discussion about what happened and learn from it. We can't do that by burying our heads in the sand about what we did.

    there is a real risk of death from PT, from going to the rifle range, from lifting in the Gym, from driving automobiles, you name it. There is a presence of risk of death in pretty much most of what we do; mitigation of that threat through ensured access to medical personal is just good ORM.
    Doing something that is intended to prevent someone from getting oxygen to their brain, induce panic, stop breathing, is fundamentally different than driving a car or shooting on a range - you're not even trying to have an honest conversation now.

    For people who can also legitimately be executed out of hand.
    Brilliant point. I suppose we should be applauded for 'just' subjecting our detainees to torture.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    But you only seem to go back to the same guy over and over, then try to represent that there were more. You don't know that, plus its quite dishonest.

    Now, I'll ask you the same question I asked Joe...Do you support the current administration using drones?
    (1) Yes, now we know that there were more.
    (2) No. Killing people with drones may get some of the terrorists, but it just creates more.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I agree with most of that. If Obama and Holder are "war criminals", then so were most of their predecessors. I'm not so sure we really want to go there.

    But, the fact of the matter is both parties are complicit in these violations of human rights, and the only reason they're coming out now is because of political grandstanding. It's the default position when the (bleep!) hits the fan: Point fingers at the other party.
    Again, I agree that there was/is criminality on both sides. Also agree we don't want to go there.

    I do think that there should be reasoned debate about whether we continue down this path. There are arguments on both sides. I do not like us using torture or killing people using joysticks to deploy drones. On the other hand I don't want a bomb to go off at a mall in the U.S. These are not easy issues.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Hah, yeah, it's amazing that people don't see the difference.

    Their thought process appears to be like an Onion headline: "12 Al Qaeda Leaders spared from being waterboarded through the use of Tomahawk Missile"
    There are two events you're conflating. That we kill people during war doesn't justify torture as a legitimate interrogation technique because it's preferable or less harmful than killing them, or at least it hasn't justified it in our history. We tried torturers and sentenced them to jail. Should those Japanese charged with war crimes, among others, simply used the defense - "We could have shot them, so torture short of death cannot be a crime."?

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