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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No one is doing that. The person who died wasn't a terrorist. He was a father and husband and worked hard as a taxi driver. We found nothing to link him to even being a combatant let alone a terrorist. We also later learned the person who pointed him out just picked someone at random in an effort to get an in to help attacks on us. So, what you really mean is that you have as low regard for innocent lives as terrorist do, right? Not do mention no moral core to know that torture is wrong, evil. We condemn terrorist because what they do is wrong. It is right to do that to hold terrorist accountable. But we don't win by being more like them than our ideals.
    Ok, so then you must also have a problem with the drone program under Obama right?
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Here's the point:

    The torture report released Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence Committee says the CIA deceived the nation with its insistence that the harsh interrogation tactics had saved lives. It says those claims are unsubstantiated by the CIA’s own records.

    Senate report: Harsh CIA tactics didn't work | The Rundown | PBS NewsHour

    Whine about left and right all you want, the point is still the point.
    The REAL point is that this report was conceived by, prepared by, funded by and championed by the Democrats on the committee. This was published as a last poke in the eye to President Bush and to keep the attention off the hearings concerning Gruber and the Benghazi cover-up.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Actually one of the purposes of the program in SERE is to disorient you so that you don't know the time, the day, or when anything will stop. And no, soldiers in training don't always know when punishment that is now associated with the EIT program will stop. I can't think of a single time I was placed in stress positions where I knew that I had any stopping point beyond the idea that eventually I would hopefully graduate boot camp. And KSM used to actually count off the seconds on his fingers in order to demonstrate to his captors that he knew that they had a time limit.
    You were in a U.S. facility, trained by U.S. personnel. You knew that. It's not the same as if you were in a dark, wet, cold prison in Iran and it's your sworn enemies controlling your fate.

    That is actually a good point. Do you believe, then, that we torture our own military when we put them through Boot Camp or SERE?
    If a soldier breaks down during training, it will stop. There is a fundamental difference between the situations you're determined to ignore because you cannot admit that we tortured detainees.

    The waterboarding of non-combatants or uniformed personnel were among the crimes that they were charged with and/or served jail time for.
    What's your point. Either the waterboarding we charged them with was a crime or not. In the 1940s and several other times in our history, we viewed it as obvious torture and therefore an obvious crime. What has changed?

    The Justice Department went to pretty strenuous lengths - and were followed pretty strictly - specifically to make sure that we didn't cross that line.
    Except when we did cross that line, such as when we had detainees die from hypothermia, or when we waterboarded detainees many times the stated limits.

    No - this is a legal question.
    It's fundamentally a moral and ethical question, not a legal one.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yes, and especially because the author puts the question honestly and calls what we did torture.

    Pretending that what we did was something short of that allows us to avoid the difficult questions raised in that article. It's chicken crap - the coward's way of avoiding the question.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I don't think I said this, however, it's worth pointing out that it doesn't mean what you are extrapolating from it. We also always have medical personnel, for example, for regular training evolutions, long runs, marches, and the like.
    When we waterboard someone, in training or otherwise, there is a real risk of death. If you disagree, then say that and explain why doing something that will prevent him from getting oxygen to his brain, and proceeds to unconsciousness and then potential death, isn't dangerous.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No - the Geneva accords for uniformed military personnel are pretty clear. But our spies can probably expect it.
    The point is we've sanctioned waterboarding as a LEGITIMATE interrogation tool.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    " Pints and pints of water ", huh ? Flowing up hill into the lungs without being coughed or spit out ?

    I don't care who that guys says he is, he's lying.

    Why go through all the trouble of Waterboarding someone when you could just tie them up and lower them into a Pool ?

    If Pints and pints of water go into your lungs anyway then why strap them inverted to a backboard ? Just dunk them until they talk.

    They go through the trouble because Waterboarding is not drowning, its simulated drowning.

    Also if Pints of pints of water flow into your your lungs your'e going to die unless you get immediate life saving medical care

    So your telling me these Muslim Terrorist had to be intubated after every session ?
    Just curious what your expertise is, and why you believe it's superior to a guy who literally wrote (with others) the SERE training on this subject?

    And what you're doing is focusing on the details to avoid the point. OK, it's not pints into your lungs, but into your lungs and stomach. Does that change anything? Or perhaps it's not pints, but cups, or ounces. Again, what does that change - the person cannot breath and in practice around the world can and did result in the prisoner becoming unconscious. If our prisoners didn't it's only because we stopped just before they did pass out from lack of oxygen, but it's the same procedure, and it's torture.
    Last edited by JasperL; 12-11-14 at 11:55 AM.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by d0gbreath View Post
    Beaudreaux is/was in the Air Force. Think about that for a moment.

    He's a liar.
    I know what he did in the Air Force. He's not.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I know what he did in the Air Force. He's not.
    I could see maybe fighter pilots practicing for capture by the enemy. But not this enemy. There's no one to shoot down a jet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The systems that ensure freedom and liberty are breaking down and fundamentalism is growing. Nobody is righteous anymore.


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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You were in a U.S. facility, trained by U.S. personnel. You knew that. It's not the same as if you were in a dark, wet, cold prison in Iran and it's your sworn enemies controlling your fate.
    What do you think the people brought to Gitmo were in? A US facility, with trained US personnel.

    If a soldier breaks down during training, it will stop.
    :raises eyebrow: who told you that? SERE is a scheduled course - you are on that train until the training evolution ends. I can't think of a single time when I was being put through stress positions where "I'm too exhausted to hold this position any more" was considered an excuse.

    However, if a detainee begins to give up valuable information, EIT also stopped.

    There is a fundamental difference between the situations you're determined to ignore because you cannot admit that we tortured detainees.
    I don't see the difference that you are trying to draw. I wouldn't say I'm determined to ignore it, I think you are attempting to create it.

    What's your point. Either the waterboarding we charged them with was a crime or not.
    Yeah - and had we done it to (for example) uniformed Iraqi soldiers during OIF-1, then that would also have been a crime.

    Except when we did cross that line, such as when we had detainees die from hypothermia, or when we waterboarded detainees many times the stated limits.
    That's an interesting charge. Can you demonstrate that the CIA violated the limits put on it by the Justice Department? Because that could lead to a legitimate case of torture occurring.

    It's fundamentally a moral and ethical question, not a legal one.
    Torture has defined legal meaning, it's not "what we think is mean".

    Yes, and especially because the author puts the question honestly and calls what we did torture.

    Pretending that what we did was something short of that allows us to avoid the difficult questions raised in that article. It's chicken crap - the coward's way of avoiding the question.
    Not at all - EIT is still abusive, it's still questionable, and it's still the kind of thing you reserve only for the most extreme circumstances. I think where he is spot-on here is on the issues of A) post-9/11 need and B) the risk of bureaucratization and normalization. EIT is still something we would have to morally wrestle with, even without defining torture broadly enough to include it.

    [quote]When we waterboard someone, in training or otherwise, there is a real risk of death. If you disagree, then say that and explain why doing something that will prevent him from getting oxygen to his brain, and proceeds to unconsciousness and then potential death, isn't dangerous.

    there is a real risk of death from PT, from going to the rifle range, from lifting in the Gym, from driving automobiles, you name it. There is a presence of risk of death in pretty much most of what we do; mitigation of that threat through ensured access to medical personal is just good ORM.

    The point is we've sanctioned waterboarding as a LEGITIMATE interrogation tool.
    For people who can also legitimately be executed out of hand.

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