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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yes. We do this all the time with most of the detainees that we are able to get. It's called "Interrogation", and we have some amazingly talented professionals who serve this country by working hard to perfect it.
    Waterboarding is torture. We charged and convicted our previous enemies of it. I'm sure the people subjected to it talked. The point is the amazingly talented professionals don't need to torture.

    Well then I would refer you to the testimony of those who have been tortured, who have generally agreed that everyone eventually breaks and gives the information the questioner is looking for.
    And also to the testimony that they agreed to all kinds of things that were false because they wanted the torture to stop. I cited a link above that includes a story about a guy who admitted to being a Catholic priest, son of a king, a Buddhist monk, and a dozen other untrue things to get the water torture to end.

    Traditional interrogation techniques have severely degraded performance against those who are trained or especially motivated to resist them (which is why we train the people who might be captured in how to do so), which is why we used the Enhanced Interrogation Technique program. As for torture, I imagine that it would also be effective against that populace. I myself have only seen it work against mid-level AQI leadership.
    OK, so we're back to it's OK because it works. Except you can't bring yourself to admit waterboarding is torture.

    well, we've been killing innocent civilians in warfare for a couple of centuries now - would you say that is morally superior to slapping a terrorist in the face in order to shock his sensibilities (that was an EIT) or wrapping a towel around his neck to protect him from whiplash before throwing him into a fake wall that would make a loud sound, making him think he'd been thrown harder than he had been (that was also an EIT)?
    If you're justifying the U.S. intentionally killing civilians in war, we need to get over the notion that we're somehow different than a terrorist. I don't think that's your point, but if not I can't see what it is. We're not accidentally torturing people, so comparing that to the inevitable collateral damage to civilians in a war is nonsense.

    Generally speaking, if the military can do it to me, I'm a little skeptical with the idea that it's torture.
    So, a procedure that leaves you unable to breath, and if continued will result in you losing consciousness and eventually in your death by asphyxiation, isn't torture because in a training situation all that is very controlled with personnel examining you before, during and after to make sure nothing bad happens?

    Now, it's still not nice. It's still application of pain and discomfort and fear and all of those things in order to break someone's mental barriers and put them in a situation where they feel completely controlled by an omnipotent/omniscient interrogator.
    That's a good description of, among other things, torture and why it's effective.

    Well, let's take a single reduced-complexity example. Let us say that Mokhtar Belmokhtar has just been brought in, and we think he has just approved a plan to bomb a series of trains in France in retaliation for France's actions in the Sahel. We really need that information, and we don't have weeks or months to build up a rapport and hope that the feel-nice program works. However, if we waterboard the guy, later al-Murabitun might target US soldiers in the region in order to retaliate above what they already would do in order to retaliate against us for capturing him in the first place and being the evil Americans etc. (so that's the differentiation, not 0 risk to risk).
    And if waterboarding fails, what's next on the list? Shoot him in the knee? Or as suggested above, torture his child, rape his daughter, and if that works, it's OK because it works? If you're OK with torture, then the moral reasoning that allows that would allow all those things. What's different about a shattered kneecap versus stopping an attack? His daughter can survive rape, many children in America are raped every day and survive...

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No. It doesn't even hold water logically. There is no real way we'd ever risk the same harm to us that others experienced. Remember, one person died in a stress position. But the fact is, no one above you is really claiming it is the same. And the one called to testify clearly stated it wasn't. People we torture endured even after they collapsed, and beyond. And not one 48 hour stretch but on going bouts of it. So, no, it is hubris to think you endured the same thing.
    Crocodile tears for terrorists.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    I happened to catch an interview (I think it was CBS) on the world news last night. Scott Pelly was interviewing two admitted CIA torturers.

    One guy had never been active CIA, military, or anything else that could be listed as possible requirements for the job. I was thinking: Here come the scapegoats. I guess they must have a written test to discover who the sadists are. I've always thought that it would be odd for a highly credentialed man or woman to be actually getting their hands wet. Those two guys were just scum looking for a great paycheck. It's ****ing laughable.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    A claim isn't equal to fact. Looking at what you did and what you got is the objective method.
    It would have been interesting if they did that. They did not. They selectively interpreted documents, and as now revealed, rejected opportunities to clarify events and results. No amount of spin, or heel clicking, is going to change that. That is a fact. An interpretation is not fact, it is an opinion.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Crocodile tears for terrorists.
    No one is doing that. The person who died wasn't a terrorist. He was a father and husband and worked hard as a taxi driver. We found nothing to link him to even being a combatant let alone a terrorist. We also later learned the person who pointed him out just picked someone at random in an effort to get an in to help attacks on us. So, what you really mean is that you have as low regard for innocent lives as terrorist do, right? Not do mention no moral core to know that torture is wrong, evil. We condemn terrorist because what they do is wrong. It is right to do that to hold terrorist accountable. But we don't win by being more like them than our ideals.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yep. No matter who makes the claim, any claim, evidence is required. Evidence and not talk is what we need.
    Feinstein's own words makes the claim.....her actions now goes against what she said. That is evident.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    It would have been interesting if they did that. They did not. They selectively interpreted documents, and as now revealed, rejected opportunities to clarify events and results. No amount of spin, or heel clicking, is going to change that. That is a fact. An interpretation is not fact, it is an opinion.
    That's what they say they did. You'll have to prove they didn't.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Feinstein's own words makes the claim.....her actions now goes against what she said. That is evident.
    So, that's not at all shocking. But again, it is not about what anyone says. It's about evidence.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Mornin Jasper. The facts are by the CIA that they worked. They would know. Not some politicians that are out in front of the cameras every two to three days. There is none, not even with this report that can say they didn't work. Well they can say it but then they wouldn't be telling the truth. Showing a few cases out of hundreds that didn't bring any benefit. Doesn't change the facts about all those others that did.
    Except when they provide a list of examples when it 'worked' they come up empty handed or at best with examples that are ambiguous. The Library Tower and OBL are good examples.

    Some politicians known as the Gang of 8 were shown the enhanced techniques. They had no problem with them when they were shown. So even more validation of how this was done out of Spite over Politics.
    That is a side issue IMO. If we are as a country going to accept torture as a legitimate, sanctioned interrogation tool, the public needs to be informed and buy off on America becoming that kind of country.

    The Justice Dept with Holder felt the same way as these Democrats do. They investigated and could not find anything criminal. What does that tell you? Or does the left want to say Holder and his Team didn't do their job?
    No, what that tells me is people exercising vast unchecked powers don't often voluntarily curtail their ability to exercise vast, unchecked powers. Holder is part of the WH, which like all leaders would prefer to operate without meaningful restraints.

    Now it is understandable that Feinstein wants a little revenge with the CIA for keeping tabs on her. She should have looked to throw her tantrum in a different way.
    They hacked into the committee's computers and attempted to remove files. It's an outrageous act. Sheesh, surely you're not justifying or minimizing the danger of a CIA arrogant enough to target lawmakers are you? That's a very scary situation IMO, and that it didn't immediately result in a dozen heads rolling at CIA is even scarier. What information do they have that protects them from really ANY consequences of that. Must be something big....

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's what they say they did. You'll have to prove they didn't.
    Already did. I think this ride is coming back to the starting point again.

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