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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No. Senate Democrats claim this...
    No, the people who were actually there flatly stated it in the CIA's own internal memos, e-mails, and documents.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    He talked to stop the waterboarding, correct? That's the point - to make it bad enough that even a hardened, committed enemy of the U.S., the baddest of the bad, admits to all kinds of things - he confessed to around 30 crimes as I recall - that he would otherwise NOT divulge. But you're saying it's not torture, just a bit uncomfortable? I can't connect the dots there.
    I'm saying that KSM wasn't operating under the assumption that we were going to kill him. And yes, after waterboarding (which is agreeably a pretty crappy experience), KSM became compliant - relieved even; telling us that we should waterboard "all the brothers" so as to relieve them of their religious duty to resist (you are, apparently, only required to resist up until a certain point, and then you are free do to whatever you need to).

    And we prosecuted Japanese for engaging in torture - waterboarding - of U.S. soldiers. Now that we do it to others, it's NOT torture? Nice, conveniently evolving, standard.
    A) We executed a grand total of 7 Japanese from those trials - all of them for crimes involving large-scale murder. And the Japanese were performing different acts - notably, forced ingestion of water
    B) Waterboarding is indeed illegal - for uniformed members of a nation state engaged in Armed Conflict, who fall under Geneva protections. It is additionally illegal for noncombatants. Those who choose to fight in civilian clothing, however, have no such rights under the international system - we could execute every member of Gitmo out of hand tomorrow and be breaking no law other than (perhaps) our own.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm telling you the testimony said none is it was like the real thing. Just a taste. Nothing more.
    keep clinging, boo. the exact same techniques were used as trained to.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the two are not mutually contradicting. He counted off the seconds, he also broke and became extremely compliant.
    So we "broke" him with non-torture?

    Sure, and when what you want them to say is intelligence information, that is what they will give you.

    I've watched it get actionable intelligence that saved lives (probably including my own). We know that the Enhanced Interrogation Program also produced actionable intelligence that saved lives. Endless counterfactuals can be interesting, but aren't always helpful - senior VEO membership goes through resistance training the same as our guys, which rather hampers the ability of traditional interrogation techniques to produce valuable information. Which is why (for example) when they tried the nice guy approach with KSM prior to EIT, they got squat.
    It's hard to square claims made with no way to verify them with testimony by people who interrogate for a living and claim that torture does not produce reliable information, or at least it's no more useful and reliable than information we get 100 other ways. Obviously no one can claim that torture will never work - that is obviously false - but that's not the question. Traditional interrogation also works, and it doesn't have the downside of being morally repugnant.

    If we want to have a national discussion about whether we should engage in torture because it works, I am good with that. If that's what we are as a country, that's what we are I suppose - no shining beacon on a hill, just another country that will do anything that works - human rights are optional, or if you prefer, there are no rules in war, and we're in a war that will never end, so might as well get used to it. Etc.

    But what is BS is making the chicken crap claim that we aren't torturing people, so we don't have to make that incredibly difficult moral and ethical choice.

    It is indeed relevant. Do you weigh risk to US personnel v the risk to Western civilians?
    I agree that it's relevant - if we torture, and it's discovered (which is inevitable) then we have to take that into account about whether torture is, on the whole, a net positive to national security.

    I don't understand the personnel versus civilians question. They're both important, but the people bearing most of the actual risk of the fallout of our various programs are IMO our personnel overseas. We should take that into account when we approve programs that put them at risk when discovered.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    keep clinging, boo. the exact same techniques were used as trained to.
    No, you just think they were. The testimony disputes you.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'm saying that KSM wasn't operating under the assumption that we were going to kill him. And yes, after waterboarding (which is agreeably a pretty crappy experience), KSM became compliant - relieved even; telling us that we should waterboard "all the brothers" so as to relieve them of their religious duty to resist (you are, apparently, only required to resist up until a certain point, and then you are free do to whatever you need to).
    Give me a break. He didn't know if or when it would ever stop - a soldier in training knows those things. It's not the same, and you're trying hard to make the irrational claim that it is the same. As I said earlier, just because many officers trained in tasers get tased as part of their training would have NO impact on the obvious determination that using a taser during interrogation is (or would be) torture.

    A) We executed a grand total of 7 Japanese from those trials - all of them for crimes involving large-scale murder. And the Japanese were performing different acts - notably, forced ingestion of water
    Forced 'ingestion' of water is how waterboarding works - it is drowning that is stopped, they breath the water into their lungs and cannot breath. And what difference does it make how many we executed - we tried roughly 6000, and thousands of those served jail sentences, many of them accused of the crime of waterboarding. I'm not sure what you're claiming - waterboarding, although listed among the crimes for which they were charged, shouldn't have been on that list because it's not torture, although we asserted through the tribunal that it WAS?

    B) Waterboarding is indeed illegal - for uniformed members of a nation state engaged in Armed Conflict, who fall under Geneva protections. It is additionally illegal for noncombatants. Those who choose to fight in civilian clothing, however, have no such rights under the international system - we could execute every member of Gitmo out of hand tomorrow and be breaking no law other than (perhaps) our own.
    Again, if you want to have a discussion about whether torture is justified, then that's fine. But let's not pretend that we're talking about something else.

    And as to the legal claims - they're irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Just because we might be able to justify torture and fit it into some legal box says really nothing about whether it's something we should be doing. We now know there is no legal consequence for doing it anyway, unless you're a whistleblower that reveals what was done.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Give me a break. He didn't know if or when it would ever stop - a soldier in training knows those things. It's not the same, and you're trying hard to make the irrational claim that it is the same. As I said earlier, just because many officers trained in tasers get tased as part of their training would have NO impact on the obvious determination that using a taser during interrogation is (or would be) torture.



    Forced 'ingestion' of water is how waterboarding works - it is drowning that is stopped, they breath the water into their lungs and cannot breath. And what difference does it make how many we executed - we tried roughly 6000, and thousands of those served jail sentences, many of them accused of the crime of waterboarding. I'm not sure what you're claiming - waterboarding, although listed among the crimes for which they were charged, shouldn't have been on that list because it's not torture, although we asserted through the tribunal that it WAS?



    Again, if you want to have a discussion about whether torture is justified, then that's fine. But let's not pretend that we're talking about something else.

    And as to the legal claims - they're irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Just because we might be able to justify torture and fit it into some legal box says really nothing about whether it's something we should be doing. We now know there is no legal consequence for doing it anyway, unless you're a whistleblower that reveals what was done.
    No, the Subject of Waterboarding does not " breath water into their lungs ".

    That's DROWNING.

    Water Board recipients are strapped to a board with their head lower than their feet.


    Thats done to keeps water out of their lungs. Waterboarding recipients psychologically think they're drowning but they're in no danger of dying.

    And what is " Forced injestion of water " ? Holding a gun to someone's head and forcing them to drink a glass of water ?
    Last edited by Fenton; 12-11-14 at 01:02 AM.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    No, the Subject of Waterboarding does not " breath water into their lungs ".

    That's DROWNING.

    Water Board recipients are strapped to a board with their head lower than their feet.


    Thats done to keeps water out of their lungs. Waterboarding recipients psychologically think they're drowning but they're in no danger of dying.
    Sure they are in danger - they can't breath. And they 'think' they're drowning because water in their nose and mouth prevents them from getting oxygen into their lungs, and therefore brain.

    And I can either take your word for it, or the word of a person who actually conducted SERE training and waterboarded 'hundreds' by his account:

    Waterboarding is Torture... Period (Links Updated # 9) | Small Wars Journal

    In the media, waterboarding is called "simulated drowning," but that's a misnomer. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning.

    Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

    How much of this the victim is to endure depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim's face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs that show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

    Waterboarding is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. Usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch. If it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia - meaning, the loss of all oxygen to the cells.
    No offense, but I'll go with the expert.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    keep clinging, boo. the exact same techniques were used as trained to.
    That is sort of true, because we trained our soldiers on how to endure TORTURE at the hands of brutal enemies.

    It's incredible (as well as abhorrent) that you're suggesting we say to the world that waterboarding our soldiers is a legitimate and perfectly acceptable interrogation technique to be used on them....

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Sure they are in danger - they can't breath. And they 'think' they're drowning because water in their nose and mouth prevents them from getting oxygen into their lungs, and therefore brain.

    And I can either take your word for it, or the word of a person who actually conducted SERE training and waterboarded 'hundreds' by his account:

    Waterboarding is Torture... Period (Links Updated # 9) | Small Wars Journal



    No offense, but I'll go with the expert.
    Lol !!

    If your'e going to be indignant about something at least make sure its not made up.

    The " throat opens and Pints and pints fill up the lungs ? " Is that a excerpt from a Onion piece ?

    How is that even possible ? How can " pints and pints of water " flowing UPHILL into the Lungs of someone who's lying inverted ?

    Remember ? His Head is Lower than is Feet.

    Where did you get that quote from ?
    Some left wing Rag ?

    You might want to explain to them that " pints and pints of water " cannot flow uphill into a set of lungs.

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