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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    KSM, for example, not only became extremely helpful...
    Another myth. The CIA's own internal documents state that waterboarding KSM was a fruitless endeavor.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    KSM knew it was in a controlled environment and that it would end as well. He used to taunt his captors by counting the seconds off on his fingers that he knew they had until they had to stop.
    OK, so in defense of waterboarding, you're saying it doesn't work. Brilliant.

    However, your admitted lack of experience and subsequent willingness to contradict those who actually know what they are talking about is noted
    Who did I contradict? Is there someone out there, a U.S. soldier, who's been waterboarded by an enemy and who has asserted that it's NOT torture?

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post


    Gitmo isn't "the field".

    SERE C isn't "playing around with your buds"

    The primary reason people think waterboarding is effective is because it was effective. KSM, for example, not only became extremely helpful, he suggested to us that we waterboard all of "the brothers" we detained, as it freed them from their obligation to suffer by resisting.
    So he mocked his interrogators, but the torture was effective? You need to pick one or the other.

    And no one argues torture is ineffective in getting people to say what they think the person doing the torture wants them to say - a confession, whatever. Obviously the purpose is to get them to talk, and eventually most WILL talk. The question is whether it's a reliable way to get actionable intelligence, is better than highly effective traditional interrogation techniques, and taken as a whole increases our national security, even after considering the tremendous downside when it becomes known that we torture detainees. On this thread people are arguing that the release of the report detailing what we did will endanger U.S. personnel. Were the gains that no one can demonstrate about the effectiveness of torture worth the downside? Those are some of the relevant questions - also the moral questions are significant.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Pp
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'm a snitch because I pointed out that you didn't manage to read the post you were responding to closely enough, and thought it was a reply to you rather than someone else? Okay.



    Stress Positions until muscles give in? Check. Sleep deprivation for days at a time? Check. Hunger? Check. Left cold and wet for days on end? Check. I've never been waterboarded, but there are others on this board who have who you are free to check with.
    Again,before congress, the testimony was no, you don't. You get a minor taste and that's all.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, so in defense of waterboarding, you're saying it doesn't work. Brilliant.
    I'm saying it does. KSM broke and told us what we wanted to know (and quite a bit more besides), and yet it wasn't what you described.

    Who did I contradict? Is there someone out there, a U.S. soldier, who's been waterboarded by an enemy and who has asserted that it's NOT torture?
    ...yeah. A few guys I know but who you won't care about, but one guy you can access since he's on this board.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Pp
    Qq

    Again,before congress, the testimony was no, you don't. You get a minor taste and that's all.
    I didn't because I didn't go to SERE C and so I wasn't waterboarded. However, I would like to meet the detainee who was kept up for 54 hours straight in extreme heat wearing extremely heavy weights and then shot at at the end of it as an interrogation technique. And I'll bet coming out of boot camp I could sit on a wall or hold a plank longer than the majority of them.
    Last edited by cpwill; 12-11-14 at 12:07 AM.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So he mocked his interrogators, but the torture was effective? You need to pick one or the other.
    the two are not mutually contradicting. He counted off the seconds, he also broke and became extremely compliant.

    And no one argues torture is ineffective in getting people to say what they think the person doing the torture wants them to say - a confession, whatever.
    Sure, and when what you want them to say is intelligence information, that is what they will give you.

    Obviously the purpose is to get them to talk, and eventually most WILL talk. The question is whether it's a reliable way to get actionable intelligence, is better than highly effective traditional interrogation techniques, and taken as a whole increases our national security, even after considering the tremendous downside when it becomes known that we torture detainees
    I've watched it get actionable intelligence that saved lives (probably including my own). We know that the Enhanced Interrogation Program also produced actionable intelligence that saved lives. Endless counterfactuals can be interesting, but aren't always helpful - senior VEO membership goes through resistance training the same as our guys, which rather hampers the ability of traditional interrogation techniques to produce valuable information. Which is why (for example) when they tried the nice guy approach with KSM prior to EIT, they got squat.

    You are correct, however, to highlight the tradeoff.

    On this thread people are arguing that the release of the report detailing what we did will endanger U.S. personnel. Were the gains that no one can demonstrate about the effectiveness of torture worth the downside? Those are some of the relevant questions - also the moral questions are significant.
    It is indeed relevant. Do you weigh risk to US personnel v the risk to Western civilians?

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    Another myth. The CIA's own internal documents state that waterboarding KSM was a fruitless endeavor.
    No. Senate Democrats claim this - and are contradicted by CIA leadership from both parties. Even their fellow Senate Democrats admit that their work is a partisan hackjob that made no attempt whatsoever to gather or interview the necessary people to make that determination.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'm saying it does. KSM broke and told us what we wanted to know (and quite a bit more besides), and yet it wasn't what you described.
    He talked to stop the waterboarding, correct? That's the point - to make it bad enough that even a hardened, committed enemy of the U.S., the baddest of the bad, admits to all kinds of things - he confessed to around 30 crimes as I recall - that he would otherwise NOT divulge. But you're saying it's not torture, just a bit uncomfortable? I can't connect the dots there.

    And we prosecuted Japanese for engaging in torture - waterboarding - of U.S. soldiers. Now that we do it to others, it's NOT torture? Nice, conveniently evolving, standard.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Qq



    I didn't because I didn't go to SERE C and so I wasn't waterboarded. However, I would like to meet the detainee who was kept up for 54 hours straight in extreme heat wearing extremely heavy weights and then shot at at the end of it as an interrogation technique. And I'll bet coming out of boot camp I could sit on a wall or hold a plank longer than the majority of them.
    I'm telling you the testimony said none is it was like the real thing. Just a taste. Nothing more.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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