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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

  1. #391
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Oh hey look - passive aggressive snidery from Boo! What an astonishment!

    ...... no coffeepap emoticon?



    No you haven't. You denied that the data presented proved beyond all doubt that we couldn't have stopped the attacks using other methods.



    That's because it wasn't directed at you - it was quoting and responding to someone else. Perhaps you should check out that "originally posted by" before you go around accusing others of being lost in the conversation?



    The answer to specifically and carefully define torture so as to ensure that we maintained the ability to save lives without crossing that line is hardly evil



    A) There are "no good guys in war" to the extent that "there are no good people". Warfare features lots of acts of cruelty (which isn't necessarily bad) and acts of evil, as well as acts of supreme sacrifice and goodness.
    B) Torture doesn't have to be personal or sadistic - if anything, for those who actually torture, becoming personal and sadistic will probably make them less effective.
    C) Interrogation such as we performed was neither personal nor sadistic, but rather professionally and deliberately crafted.



    Huh. And this guy committed torture?



    I was placed in stress conditions and made to expose myself for prolonged, sleep deprived periods in the military. Was I tortured? We've got guys on this forum who have been waterboarded - they'll tell you it is n't torture.

    .

    Yeah - and I gave you a rundown of multiple attacks stopped with the detainee reporting, and described to you how deeply our understanding of al-Qa'ida on that program, and even quoted KSM saying that we should waterboard all the detainees because it would make life easier on them... and you gave me in response the FBI guy who claimed that if only he'd gotten more time his nice-guy approach would have eventually worked, he pretty promises.
    You did exactly what I said you'd do, snitch or not.

    And no, I should you years ago that the people who run those programs you went through stated before congress that you did not go through what they went through. That has been clearly stated.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    L
    Quote Originally Posted by bubbabgone View Post
    I meant techniques that the disclosure of the kind you and Jihadists would like to see on the front page could reveal sources and methods better left out of the public eye.

    I get the feeling you think learning item A in Gitmo was of no use unless it lead immediately to item Z after a plane ride.
    There's a whole alphabet in between that the disclosure of the evidence you seek would jeopardize.
    And those missing letters could be our people or allies.

    Bottom line ... I learned earlier on you'll never be prepared to admit the program had successes.
    Give verifiable evidence and I'll believe it. You see, though I tease you guys because you can't produce even one, by cliam isn't that they never ever got anything. It is that over all it's ineffective, causing as much or more harm than good. But I would love someone to match me just to keep in interesting. Instead I get willing suspension of disbelief by true believers who will never ask question or think critically.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    If your not gonna point them out, then I guess we are moving on..


    Where did I say I dont give a **** about what happens to Americans? Can you point that out please?


    You bethca they did. If you dont want torture to be used as a recruitment tool its really quite simple, DONT TORTURE PEOPLE.



    You call it a political stunt. Others including John McCain call torture a stain on our country.


    Telling them this is what happens when you get so caught up in fear that neo-cons will use it to commit crimes, and openly do something we as Americans, I thought were so whole heartedly against. We were told "we dont torture", we were told "its just enhanced interegation" then it was "ehh it was just a few bad apples its not systematic" but guess what it was systematic. Sorry, if you find that to be brought to the publics attention, now you are just gonna play the fear card to say it shouldnt be released? Guess what that does not mean "oh I love putting American's lives in danger", I'm glad the ramped up security, good they should, but this had to come to light, and it rightly should, we as an American public should know what we did, we should learn from our past.

    Read what Susan Collins has to say about your report.....I doubt she is lying since she was one of the original 3 Republicans that sided with the Demos on this matter. It takes care of a lot about that report you are harping about. Even though you still haven't seen the Republican Report, Other than their Dissent to this Report.

    Your the one that is implying that to get this report out is more important than those lives. When did the US say it had an Open policy to torture again?

    Oh and yeah I said the Report should not be released. Especially with the Details. Due to what it will cause. That's not to say they couldn't have released a report with their alleged findings and conclusion.

    Didn't even need to hold any Press conference nor take it to the floor of the Senate to get the Report out.....Correct?

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Why not take that self serving assertion for the attack on the West Coast?
    BTW you'll need to be specific about the "West Coast" attack but here's one article explaining why previous assertions by torture apologists that waterboarding KSM prevented one such attack were bogus:

    Why al-Qaida's plot to bomb L.A.'s Library Tower didn't warrant torture.

    A subsequent fact sheet released by the Bush White House states, "In 2002, we broke up [italics mine] a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast." These two statements make clear that however far the plot to attack the Library Tower ever got—an unnamed senior FBI official would later tell the Los Angeles Times that Bush's characterization of it as a "disrupted plot" was "ludicrous"—that plot was foiled in 2002. But Sheikh Mohammed wasn't captured until March 2003.
    Fact Sheet: Keeping America Safe From Attack

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Read what Susan Collins has to say about your report.....
    Again I already did, and already addressed this point.

    I doubt she is lying since she was one of the original 3 Republicans that sided with the Demos on this matter.
    Where did I ever accuse her of lying?

    It takes care of a lot about that report you are harping about.
    "Takes care"? What does that even mean?

    Even though you still haven't seen the Republican Report, Other than their Dissent to this Report.
    And neither have you and, you are here saying the misquoted, lied, was a partisan stunt, etc etc, but then you have no evidence to back up any of these facts... And even admitted that saying, "well we just have to wait and see".

    Your the one that is implying that to get this report out is more important than those lives.
    Keep on playing that fear card. Is this the new talking point you are going to use now?

    When did the US say it had an Open policy to torture again?
    When didnt it? Where does it say we cant? But then again I thought we didnt torture?
    Remember?: Bush: We Don't Torture People Tenet Denies CIA Torture (CBS News)

    Oh and yeah I said the Report should not be released. Especially with the Details. Due to what it will cause. That's not to say they couldn't have released a report with their alleged findings and conclusion.
    Outrage? Good it should. This is what happens we you torture people, especially when we were told "we dont torture", "the CIA doesnt torture". When you lie to your own citizens, and the world it causes outrage.

    Didn't even need to hold any Press conference
    Need? No. But they did get over it.

    nor take it to the floor of the Senate to get the Report out.....Correct?
    No idea. But when a senate committee is set up and a investigation is set up in committee, they take their findings to the floor to inform the senate. Its pretty damn usual and standard, at parliamentary.


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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    BTW you'll need to be specific about the "West Coast" attack but here's one article explaining why previous assertions by torture apologists that waterboarding KSM prevented one such attack were bogus:

    Why al-Qaida's plot to bomb L.A.'s Library Tower didn't warrant torture.



    Fact Sheet: Keeping America Safe From Attack

    Sure its questionable......but then so is Feinstein.



    Absent from the report is any discussion of the context the United States faced after 9/11. This was a time we had solid evidence that al Qaida was planning a second wave of attacks against the U.S.; we had certain knowledge that bin Laden had met with Pakistani nuclear scientists and wanted nuclear weapons; we had reports that nuclear weapons were being smuggled into New York City; and we had hard evidence that al Qaida was trying to manufacture anthrax. It felt like a "ticking time bomb" every single day.





    CIASavedLives

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Sure its questionable......but then so is Feinstein.
    You keep diverting attention over to some other bouncing ball. The fact is the claims that the torture program 'worked' just aren't backed by evidence. The supporters have repeatedly made claims like the two you cited and which I then provided evidence that at best the claims are vague enough to be worthless. The claim that the attack on the library in LA was thwarted by waterboarding KSM before we captured him is obviously false, made up.

    BTW, you haven't seen me encourage prosecution of those involved. What I'm mainly pushing back on is the cowardly stance that what we did wasn't torture. It just was and we should be honest about it, honest about the circumstances in which we tortured detainees, and do that to inform what we do in the future. If it's waterboard someone 300 times if we think he has intelligence, insert needles into their fingernails, freeze them potentially to death, beat them, whatever it takes short of intentionally slow death or some other arbitrary line, etc. then so be it. But let's have an honest conversation about it.
    Last edited by JasperL; 12-10-14 at 10:03 PM.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    L

    Give verifiable evidence and I'll believe it. You see, though I tease you guys because you can't produce even one, by cliam isn't that they never ever got anything. It is that over all it's ineffective, causing as much or more harm than good. But I would love someone to match me just to keep in interesting. Instead I get willing suspension of disbelief by true believers who will never ask question or think critically.
    ... and no matter what anyone comes up with you'll be ready with some reason to reject it.
    That's clear.
    We're done here.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbabgone View Post
    ... and no matter what anyone comes up with you'll be ready with some reason to reject it.
    That's clear.
    We're done here.
    Actual supported reasons.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Sure its questionable......but then so is Feinstein.



    Absent from the report is any discussion of the context the United States fac
    ed after 9/11. This was a time we had solid evidence that al Qaida was planning a second wave of attacks against the U.S.; we had certain knowledge that bin Laden had met with Pakistani nuclear scientists and wanted nuclear weapons; we had reports that nuclear weapons were being smuggled into New York City; and we had hard evidence that al Qaida was trying to manufacture anthrax. It felt like a "ticking time bomb" every single day.





    CIASavedLives
    These are just quotes. They are not supported by verifiable evidence.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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