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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Well, I have had waterboarding done to me, know that more power makes the prod more damaging
    I'll accept you've been waterboarded, but that's not persuasive. Many cops who use tasers are required to get tased in very controlled conditions, after being medically evaluated before and after the session, as part of their training in use of the weapon. That doesn't mean that using a taser during interrogation isn't torture. It is or would be, and any rational human, and the courts, would rightfully dismiss any information or confession obtained while being tased/tortured.

    And I'm unclear on what the point of using a cattle prod (turned to a presumably "low" level!!) during interrogation might be? If it doesn't produce severe pain and fear or more to come, then it will have no effect, and if it does produce those effects, it's torture by the very definition of the word. So how can you draw a line around "painful, but not TOO painful" when talking about a cattle prod or a set of electrical prods to your testicles, just a little bit of waterboarding, etc.?

    and I have been following what torture means, has been applied and works since I was a kid. There have been a good number of studies and reports available over the years. And you do not seem to have read much.
    Can you cite a study (or anything else) that finds torture is superior to traditional interrogation techniques? I've read quite a few articles quoting professional interrogators who conclude that it's excellent for obtaining confessions (as any brutal dictator has known for thousands of years), but otherwise what you get is what the detainee thinks will stop the torture, and that might or might not be in the same ballpark as the truth, cannot be relied on, and is frequently bad. And that information AT LEAST AS GOOD and generally better can be obtained by skilled interrogators using traditional methods. Again, that last part is essential.

    Bottom line is if we want to accept torture as a legitimate interrogation tool, then let's do it with our eyes open and admitting what we are doing and why. Then maybe we can have a proper study of which torture techniques produce the best information, and pay some Pentagon consultants fat fees to oversee the U.S. Torture Program, make sure that it's not too painful, but still gets the hardened terrorists singing like birds, etc. And maybe if it works well enough on foreign detainees, we can bring it home to use on domestic 'terrorists' and other 'high value' targets! After all, if it's not torture to waterboard someone, then why shouldn't the NYPD waterboard their detainees during questioning?

    And it's just cowardly to redefine 'torture' so we don't have to admit that IS what we were doing to detainees.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Let's just take that self serving assertion. We by all accounts ceased 'enhanced interrogation' years ago, years before we killed OBL. What intelligence gathered during a waterboarding session led the spooks to his hideout in Pakistan many years after those interrogation sessions occurred and years before he was at that location?

    By some accounts, the key information about a courier was obtained through normal methods. And even if the torture sessions produced some evidence that was eventually, 8 years later, useful, it's also clear that we also relied on vast amounts of information that was gathered through conventional means, and we'll never know whether or not that information from torture, or better information, could have been obtained through conventional means. Professional interrogators have repeatedly testified that torture is an inferior technique to gather actionable intelligence - not inferior morally or ethically but on a practical level. That it might produce SOME evidence isn't actually any proof that, even if we accept self serving claims by the torturers, that torture is the better method.


    Why not take that self serving assertion for the attack on the West Coast?

    Here is what Susan Collins has to say. Even tho she doesn't condone the use of torture.


    Sen. Collins' Views on Senate Intelligence Committee Report on CIA Interrogation Program


    "In addition to the partisan nature of the staff investigation, the report has significant intrinsic limitations because it did not involve direct interviews of CIA officials, contract personnel, or other Executive branch personnel. John Rizzo, one of the chief architects of the program, has stated publicly that he would have been happy to be interviewed, and he said a number of his colleagues would have as well. The absence of interviews significantly eroded the bipartisan cooperation that existed when the SSCI Review began and calls into question some of the report's analysis.

    "The lack of interviews violated the Committee's bipartisan Terms of Reference that were approved by an overwhelming 14-1 vote in March 2009. The Terms of Reference describe the purpose, scope, and methodology of the Review, and they include the following statement: "The Committee will use the tools of oversight necessary to complete a thorough review including, but not limited to, document reviews and requests, interviews, testimony at closed and open hearings, as appropriate, and preparation of findings and recommendations." Yet, there were no interviews, no hearings, and no recommendations. By comparison, the SASC's 2008 Inquiry into the Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody included 70 interviews, written responses from more than 200 individuals in response to written questions, two hearings, and at least two subpoenas. "Documents never tell the full story and lack context. As the former Chairman or Ranking Member of the Senate's chief investigative committee for ten years, I found that interviews were always key sources of information for every investigation our Homeland Security Committee conducted. In the 2012 HSGAC investigation into the attacks in Benghazi, for example, we discovered one of our most alarming findings in a discussion with the Commander of U.S. Africa Command, General Carter Ham. We learned that he was unaware of the presence of CIA officers in Benghazi, despite the fact that his Command had responsibility to prepare for the evacuation of U.S. government personnel.

    "The bipartisan Terms of Reference also called for the production of policy recommendations, but not one is included in the Review's Findings & Conclusions or its Executive Summary. Ironically, it was the CIA, rather than the Committee, that first developed recommendations to address the mismanagement, misconduct, and flawed performance that characterized too much of the CIA's Detention & Interrogation program. I have identified several recommendations that should be implemented as soon as possible.

    - See more at: Susan M.*Collins (via noodls) / Sen. Collins' Views on Senate Intelligence Committee Report on CIA Interrogation Program

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    LOL part of the report actually lists the use of 5 interrogators "yelling at the subject at the same time" as torture...Dear God! What is the matter with you libs?
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    What talking points?



    Well saying not only this report states but many other said torture didnt work.. So yea..
    But hey at least we admitted we torture people..

    The best you got?

    ""Torture and abuse cost American lives...I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq...How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans." -Matthew Alexander, leader of an interrogations team assigned to a Special Operations task force in Iraq in 2006.


    Read the thread you will see plenty of them.

    So that is your excuse for not giving a **** about what happens to other Americans and Allies overseas.....wherein as you aptly pointed out Abu Ghraib, wherein terrorists used the incident to recruit and attack or kidnap Americans.

    That's the Best you got.....that Americans and or Allies could die for some political stunt. To say we don't Torture or have an Open Policy for Torture. When we don't have any open policy to begin with. Yeah that's telling the American people something.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Why not take that self serving assertion for the attack on the West Coast?
    So we can gloss over the OBL claim?

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    LOL part of the report actually lists the use of 5 interrogators "yelling at the subject at the same time" as torture...Dear God! What is the matter with you libs?
    Do you have a cite for that? A search using that quote didn't work.

    Besides, we knew that at least we waterboarded some, subjected some to severe sleep deprivation, beatings, stress positions, induced hypothermia leading to some deaths, etc. If I accept that yelling at someone isn't torture, will you address the others? Obviously yelling at someone isn't torture, no matter how many did it at one time.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Read the thread you will see plenty of them.
    If your not gonna point them out, then I guess we are moving on..

    So that is your excuse for not giving a **** about what happens to other Americans and Allies overseas.....
    Where did I say I dont give a **** about what happens to Americans? Can you point that out please?

    wherein as you aptly pointed out Abu Ghraib, wherein terrorists used the incident to recruit and attack or kidnap Americans.
    You bethca they did. If you dont want torture to be used as a recruitment tool its really quite simple, DONT TORTURE PEOPLE.


    That's the Best you got.....that Americans and or Allies could die for some political stunt.
    You call it a political stunt. Others including John McCain call torture a stain on our country.

    To say we don't Torture or have an Open Policy for Torture. When we don't have any open policy to begin with. Yeah that's telling the American people something.
    Telling them this is what happens when you get so caught up in fear that neo-cons will use it to commit crimes, and openly do something we as Americans, I thought were so whole heartedly against. We were told "we dont torture", we were told "its just enhanced interegation" then it was "ehh it was just a few bad apples its not systematic" but guess what it was systematic. Sorry, if you find that to be brought to the publics attention, now you are just gonna play the fear card to say it shouldnt be released? Guess what that does not mean "oh I love putting American's lives in danger", I'm glad the ramped up security, good they should, but this had to come to light, and it rightly should, we as an American public should know what we did, we should learn from our past.


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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    LOL part of the report actually lists the use of 5 interrogators "yelling at the subject at the same time" as torture...Dear God! What is the matter with you libs?
    Yelling at them?

    Is that what happened to Diliwar and Habibullah?

    In U.S. Report, Brutal Details of 2 Afghan Inmates' Deaths



    By TIM GOLDEN
    Published: May 20, 2005

    Even as the young Afghan man was dying before them, his American jailers continued to torment him.

    The prisoner, a slight, 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar, was hauled from his cell at the detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, at around 2 a.m. to answer questions about a rocket attack on an American base. When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days.
    Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned a final horrific detail: Most of the interrogators had believed Mr. Dilawar was an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time.

    The story of Mr. Dilawar's brutal death at the Bagram Collection Point - and that of another detainee, Habibullah, who died there six days earlier in December 2002 - emerge from a nearly 2,000-page confidential file of the Army's criminal investigation into the case, a copy of which was obtained by The New York Times.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    You bethca they did. If you dont want torture to be used as a recruitment tool its really quite simple, DONT TORTURE PEOPLE.
    Exactly.

    Furthermore, if anyone really thought we could have an 'enhanced interrogation' program, black sites, rendition, and keep that secret, they're idiots and should be prosecuted for criminal stupidity if nothing else.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Be more specific then.
    I meant techniques that the disclosure of the kind you and Jihadists would like to see on the front page could reveal sources and methods better left out of the public eye.

    I get the feeling you think learning item A in Gitmo was of no use unless it lead immediately to item Z after a plane ride.
    There's a whole alphabet in between that the disclosure of the evidence you seek would jeopardize.
    And those missing letters could be our people or allies.

    Bottom line ... I learned earlier on you'll never be prepared to admit the program had successes.

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