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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Poor use of words on my part. For the record, I have always hated the idea of torture. Feeling we should never cross that line. That being said, I think it would be hypocritical to go after the folks who actually did this stuff, versus the folks in the past and the current who order them to do it.
    The way I see it, if a country sanctions torture, then others have the right to torture back. If you are for this torture, then you would be a big fat hypocrite if you had a problem with your own soldiers being tortured back.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Let's keep this breaking up to a minimum as i don't want you to get lost and start misrepresenting something.
    Oh hey look - passive aggressive snidery from Boo! What an astonishment!

    ...... no coffeepap emoticon?

    And over the years, I have looked up every claim. I've followed every link. And read the what Demsoc posted. You'll see a different explanation.
    No you haven't. You denied that the data presented proved beyond all doubt that we couldn't have stopped the attacks using other methods.

    You got lsot already. This doesn't speak to anything I said, at least not as written.
    That's because it wasn't directed at you - it was quoting and responding to someone else. Perhaps you should check out that "originally posted by" before you go around accusing others of being lost in the conversation?

    No we did engage in torture. The effort to redefine torture was in itself evil.
    The answer to specifically and carefully define torture so as to ensure that we maintained the ability to save lives without crossing that line is hardly evil

    And while there are no good guys in war, it is still different than torture which requires a much more personal and sadistic act.
    A) There are "no good guys in war" to the extent that "there are no good people". Warfare features lots of acts of cruelty (which isn't necessarily bad) and acts of evil, as well as acts of supreme sacrifice and goodness.
    B) Torture doesn't have to be personal or sadistic - if anything, for those who actually torture, becoming personal and sadistic will probably make them less effective.
    C) Interrogation such as we performed was neither personal nor sadistic, but rather professionally and deliberately crafted.

    One of the fellows I talked to at first said it didn't bother him. His wife gave an odd look. I questioned the look. She talked about how he didn't sleep at night. He began talking about the things he had done, and largely the redefined things you speak of, and finally admitted it was why he couldn't sleep. I only listened.
    Huh. And this guy committed torture?

    I can't speak for you and won't, but what we did is and always has been torture.
    I was placed in stress conditions and made to expose myself for prolonged, sleep deprived periods in the military. Was I tortured? We've got guys on this forum who have been waterboarded - they'll tell you it is n't torture.

    When we first started talking about this, there was a post with the CIA handbook on this. I can't find it now, but hopefully you'll remember it
    .

    Yeah - and I gave you a rundown of multiple attacks stopped with the detainee reporting, and described to you how deeply our understanding of al-Qa'ida on that program, and even quoted KSM saying that we should waterboard all the detainees because it would make life easier on them... and you gave me in response the FBI guy who claimed that if only he'd gotten more time his nice-guy approach would have eventually worked, he pretty promises.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    First of all, you ignored the main point - just because it works or might work means it's OK for us to do? There is no line at all? Should we extend that philosophy to dealing with suspected criminals at home? You OK giving the Obama administration the power to torture militia members they suspect MIGHT BE domestic terrorists because some day one of them might in fact blow up the WH?

    The CIA has been asked to provide examples where the torture program did get actionable intel and have basically come up empty. So it's not that the report examined only 20, it's that the top guys have been asked to provide the intelligence committees with examples of it working and can't or won't do so, and when they do provide examples, they are found to be at best doubtful, and in many ways fabricated, with key information coming in fact from sessions or sources that did NOT involve torture.

    Furthermore, if we are to objectively evaluate the torture program, you cannot cherry pick one or a handful out of the "hundreds and hundreds" where some worthwhile information was obtained and ignore 1) the MANY times we got better information through traditional interrogation and 2) got crap intel from tortured prisoners, or got false confessions etc. And you also can't ignore what the torture program does do our overall national security picture - does being a country that openly tortures suspects increase our national security, all things considered? I can't see how that's the case.


    No the CIA didn't come up empty.....they have cited cases and there is a lot that is still classified.

    The point is.....we don't have an Open Policy to torture.


    A group of former top-ranking CIA officials disputed a U.S. Senate committee's finding that the agency's interrogation techniques produced no valuable intelligence, saying such work had saved thousands of lives. Former CIA directors George Tenet, Porter Goss and Michael Hayden, along with three ex-deputy directors, wrote in an op-ed article published on Wednesday in the Wall Street Journal that the Senate Intelligence Committee report also was wrong in saying the agency had been deceptive about its work following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

    "The committee has given us ... a one-sided study marred by errors of fact and interpretation - essentially a poorly done and partisan attack on the agency that has done the most to protect America after the 9/11 attacks," they said. The report concluded the CIA failed to disrupt any subsequent plots despite torturing captives during the presidency of George W. Bush. But the former CIA officials said the United States never would have tracked down and killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in 2011 without information acquired in the interrogation program. Their methods also led to the capture of ranking al Qaeda operatives, provided valuable information about the organization and saved thousands of lives by disrupting al Qaeda plots, including one for an attack on the U.S. West Coast that could have been similar to the Sept. 11 attacks.

    The intelligence officials criticized the committee staff for not interviewing any of them and said the staff had already concluded the interrogation methods gave no useful intelligence before conducting their investigation......snip~

    Ex-CIA officials say torture report is one-sided, flawed


    Hope that sheds some light on what you didn't think the CIA had.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    No I am not military, but wanted to know, what I was talking about.
    It's not clear what the circumstances of you being waterboarded were? And if you can't speak to it personally, then all you have is the accounts of others, same as me.

    Yes, I have thought about the difference between knowing and not knowing, if you are to die. Without wanting to go into it, I do not think that it makes the difference. In the case of the prisoners of whom we know, we are talking of ones that were well briefed on American methods. They would very probably have known the going would be very bad but not deadly.
    Not persuasive. Our 'standards' were thrown out the window when we didn't get what we wanted, (see, KSM) so depending on the U.S. adhering to standards would have proved foolish. People died in our custody, and I'm sure more died in the black sites, but we'll never know about those because we handed them off to 'third parties.'

    Yes, you are quite right. We as a nation and as a community of nations need to talk about what torture is. We got it wrong in the UN Charter and have demeaned the term. Take your cattle prod. Using it on a person can be torture, but it need not be. This has been long overdue and
    is why I thought it so good a step, when the Bush White House asked it to be looked at, analyzed and defined. It was only a first step, but more than most countries have had the sense and courage to do. It is very unpleasant a topic. Politically a nightmare. But we should demand the discussion.
    When can using a cattle prod on someone during an interrogation be NOT-torture?

    And IMO the memos justifying torture were a huge step down a path we do not want to be on. There's a good reason why "just a little bit of torture" was paired with rendition, black sites, etc. If something that didn't fit in the narrow confines of ridiculous rules justifying torture so long as it wasn't TOO bad was necessary, we just arranged for someone else to do it, or threw out our own standards. Once you obliterate a moral line, then you should expect people to behave as if the moral line was obliterated.

    And, heck, it's now confirmed that there are no consequences to stepping over the already obliterated lines. The people involved have been promoted, certainly haven't faced any legal difficulties, and the only ones in jail related to our torture program are the whistleblowers. And a good part of the public denies that torture is torture. See this thread.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's not clear what the circumstances of you being waterboarded were? And if you can't speak to it personally, then all you have is the accounts of others, same as me.

    Not persuasive. Our 'standards' were thrown out the window when we didn't get what we wanted, (see, KSM) so depending on the U.S. adhering to standards would have proved foolish. People died in our custody, and I'm sure more died in the black sites, but we'll never know about those because we handed them off to 'third parties.'

    When can using a cattle prod on someone during an interrogation be NOT-torture?

    And IMO the memos justifying torture were a huge step down a path we do not want to be on. There's a good reason why "just a little bit of torture" was paired with rendition, black sites, etc. If something that didn't fit in the narrow confines of ridiculous rules justifying torture so long as it wasn't TOO bad was necessary, we just arranged for someone else to do it, or threw out our own standards. Once you obliterate a moral line, then you should expect people to behave as if the moral line was obliterated.

    And, heck, it's now confirmed that there are no consequences to stepping over the already obliterated lines. The people involved have been promoted, certainly haven't faced any legal difficulties, and the only ones in jail related to our torture program are the whistleblowers. And a good part of the public denies that torture is torture. See this thread.
    In other words, you do not know, what you are talking about, but have strong opinions in spite of the fact. This is not quite untypical of the people that condemn so easily.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    [COLOR="#800000"]
    "The committee has given us ... a one-sided study marred by errors of fact and interpretation - essentially a poorly done and partisan attack on the agency that has done the most to protect America after the 9/11 attacks," they said. The report concluded the CIA failed to disrupt any subsequent plots despite torturing captives during the presidency of George W. Bush. But the former CIA officials said the United States never would have tracked down and killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in 2011 without information acquired in the interrogation program. Their methods also led to the capture of ranking al Qaeda operatives, provided valuable information about the organization and saved thousands of lives by disrupting al Qaeda plots, including one for an attack on the U.S. West Coast that could have been similar to the Sept. 11 attacks.
    Let's just take that self serving assertion. We by all accounts ceased 'enhanced interrogation' years ago, years before we killed OBL. What intelligence gathered during a waterboarding session led the spooks to his hideout in Pakistan many years after those interrogation sessions occurred and years before he was at that location?

    By some accounts, the key information about a courier was obtained through normal methods. And even if the torture sessions produced some evidence that was eventually, 8 years later, useful, it's also clear that we also relied on vast amounts of information that was gathered through conventional means, and we'll never know whether or not that information from torture, or better information, could have been obtained through conventional means. Professional interrogators have repeatedly testified that torture is an inferior technique to gather actionable intelligence - not inferior morally or ethically but on a practical level. That it might produce SOME evidence isn't actually any proof that, even if we accept self serving claims by the torturers, that torture is the better method.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    In other words, you do not know, what you are talking about, but have strong opinions in spite of the fact. This is not quite untypical of the people that condemn so easily.
    Well, what do you KNOW that I don't? What part of that is wrong?

    And when is using a cattle prod during interrogation NOT-torture?

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Well, what do you KNOW that I don't? What part of that is wrong?

    And when is using a cattle prod during interrogation NOT-torture?
    Well, I have had waterboarding done to me, know that more power makes the prod more damaging
    and I have been following what torture means, has been applied and works since I was a kid. There have been a good number of studies and reports available over the years. And you do not seem to have read much.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Well lets move past the left wing talking points.....Altogether.
    What talking points?


    Not one Democrat would say anything about Intel that came thru torture if it prevented a major attack and certainly not one that involved a nuke.
    Well saying not only this report states but many other said torture didnt work.. So yea..
    But hey at least we admitted we torture people..
    So how you looking now with all that preaching of morality.....while not giving a **** about how many lives you put in danger over a report that is old news and doesn't change any policy?
    The best you got?

    ""Torture and abuse cost American lives...I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq...How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans." -Matthew Alexander, leader of an interrogations team assigned to a Special Operations task force in Iraq in 2006.


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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Why do you assume that just because I suggested what may happen as a result of this information going public that I support such action? Reading comprehension...
    I didn't assume anything.

    1) Such information was already made public years ago. The only difference here is the details as to how helpful torture was to intelligence gather. From the looks of it, not very.
    You mean from the pure left wing view of it. If you haven't read it yet, the ex-CIA Directors Op-ED today painted a completely different picture than the one by the all knowing DiFi.

    2) Most nations would consider beheadings to be far worse than any act of torture (mainly because it's their people - Europeans as well as Americans - who are being beheaded).

    The only nations that might get in an uproar over this are the Saudis and the UAE and their hands are so clean here either. Nonetheless, if people across the world start complaining loud enough condemning America for our torturous deeds especially if world leaders take this up to the U.N., we might see some pressure to do something about this besides publishing a torture report.
    That's not happening because our interrogation methods here are a joke compared to the rest of the world. It's like the pot calling the corningware black.
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