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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

  1. #351
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony60 View Post
    Yeah, right. Who in the international community would that be? Don't forget to exclude all the countries that do real torture, everyday, to prisoners, just for the fun of it, including their own citizens. The left has this fictional dreamy thought of an elite, above all "international community" that will finally put the big bad USA in it's place. Get real. We are the greatest force for good that this planet has ever known. At least when we don't have cowards like Obama at the helm.
    Why do you assume that just because I suggested what may happen as a result of this information going public that I support such action? Reading comprehension...

    If the Obama Administration won't do anything about it, it's highly unlikely any other nation would. Hence, the reason I prefaced my response with "worse case". Frankly, I highly doubt any other nation would dare touch this issue for two reasons:

    1) Such information was already made public years ago. The only difference here is the details as to how helpful torture was to intelligence gather. From the looks of it, not very.

    2) Most nations would consider beheadings to be far worse than any act of torture (mainly because it's their people - Europeans as well as Americans - who are being beheaded).

    The only nations that might get in an uproar over this are the Saudis and the UAE and their hands are so clean here either. Nonetheless, if people across the world start complaining loud enough condemning America for our torturous deeds especially if world leaders take this up to the U.N., we might see some pressure to do something about this besides publishing a torture report.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Calling what the US does "torture" is like calling your walk to your front porch a marathon.
    I don't know if you're being cute with the use of "does" (as in currently) but people died during interrogation either by U.S. personnel or under their direct supervision. Not sure what definition of 'torture' you're using, but interrogation techniques that were harsh enough to kill people should probably be included in it.

    We tortured people directly, and facilitated the torture of many others by 'third parties' through rendition etc. The question is whether we should continue to do that, and if not, what to do about the torture programs of the past. At a minimum, we should face what we did and learn from it, and either expand the use of torture because it works so awesomely and is a morally acceptable way to get information, or not.

  3. #353
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    I think the majority of us expect our government to lie to us. We even support them in all the lies they tell by making excuses for them. We only become mad at all the lies if it is the other party, the one we do not support is doing the lying. Our party, we are fine with it and even get a good laugh out of it at times.

    I had a poll in which stated only 6% of all Americans expect a candidate to keep their campaign promises. That is how low a bar we hold our government and elected officials too. Trust in government is around 25% today. I have that poll. We consider lying just part of our political systems and something the government does. No big thing.

    Tomorrow this report will mean nothing unless something happens overseas and it will be replaced with another hot issue.
    There are several posts in this very thread that prove that first paragraph correct.

    I think the rest of it is on target as well.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    What has always baffled me is that the US, rightfully at times, has used its military muscle to advance "freedom and democracy", but has in recent times has shown nothing but authoritarianism in that goal.

    Sociologists and historians agree that the shift from being determined enemies by Japan and Germany, to good friends and allies was largely steeped in how America conquered. I had a great friend, a Japanese born gardener who was a child when McArthur's troops rolled through his suburb of Tokyo. They had lined the streets with make shift American flags in the hopes the conquerors would not behead the adults and eat their children as they had been taught. Instead, and he had tears in his eyes when he told me this, they stopped the trucks and began handing out rice! His family had been subsisting on rats.

    Compare that to Abu-Graib, how the US 'conquered' Iraq and imposed an unwanted government.

    Is it any wonder that those deserving of "freedom and democracy" are resisting it's implementation as presented by the current and previous administration?

    Not having figured out who are the bad guys doesn't help. I suspect there are Afghans who might be wary since Al-Qaeda was killing them with American weapons.
    Well said.

    Not only that, but we're dealing with a culture that considers freedom and democracy evil, as it allows people to disobey Allah.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Ooops caught me
    But lets move past the right wing talking points shall we?
    You have claimed this report is specifically political, you upheld a neo-cons talking points. Then when asked to provide evidence/proof or anything to back up his claims that this report is misleading, politically opportunistic, and used misquotes, you couldnt find anything, jsut said "we gotta wait". So you are already holding up a conclusion without any evidence to back up said conlusion. Essentially you upheld one mans talking points to try to discredit a whole report that took 4 years to prepare and went through 6 million pages of documents. Now you are going with yet another talking point..


    Like Susan Colins? I already addressed that.



    "exact same"? Never said that.


    Mainly they didnt have access to the documents this Senate committee did. "While the task force did not have access to classified records, it is the most ambitious independent attempt to date to assess the detention and interrogation programs. A separate 6,000-page report on the Central Intelligence Agency’s record by the Senate Intelligence Committee, based exclusively on agency records, rather than interviews, remains classified."


    How did they "come up with conclusions for the Republicans"?


    Uhhh what are you even talking about now?


    Well lets move past the left wing talking points.....Altogether.

    Not one Democrat would say anything about Intel that came thru torture if it prevented a major attack and certainly not one that involved a nuke.

    So how you looking now with all that preaching of morality.....while not giving a **** about how many lives you put in danger over a report that is old news and doesn't change any policy?

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I don't know if you're being cute with the use of "does" (as in currently) but people died during interrogation either by U.S. personnel or under their direct supervision. Not sure what definition of 'torture' you're using, but interrogation techniques that were harsh enough to kill people should probably be included in it.

    We tortured people directly, and facilitated the torture of many others by 'third parties' through rendition etc. The question is whether we should continue to do that, and if not, what to do about the torture programs of the past. At a minimum, we should face what we did and learn from it, and either expand the use of torture because it works so awesomely and is a morally acceptable way to get information, or not.
    Just wondering if you think how we handled people in the past is worst than what WE ARE CURRENTLY DOING. That is using drones like they are video games and killing (rather than abusing) not only terrorists, but the people around them like their wives and kids. What should we do with the people from the President on down who are killing people without a trial more than a decade after we were bombed???

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    There are several posts in this very thread that prove that first paragraph correct.

    I think the rest of it is on target as well.
    The real sad part of all of this, we put up with it and accept it as the norm.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Oh, there is no question that the reporters and good people often mix up thing that are torture with things that are not. Waterboarding is a very good example. Three goes of it as it was allowed were unpleasant, but not torture by any stretch of the imagination. 184, on the other hand, would probably qualify, as would 700 hours of sleep deprivation.
    It's a form of drowning that is repeatedly stopped before the person actually dies. If the person controlling the water flow doesn't stop, the person WILL die. It's torture. The entire purpose is to inflict enough pain/fear/both on a person to get them to tell you something - not different in substance than pulling out a fingernail, beating them, using cattle prods, etc.

    It's pretty shocking that we'd try to redefine a type of torture as something else (getting someone to talk by infliction of immense pain and fear of death would be called what alternative term?) just because we did it and generally 'we' don't 'torture' so what we did must be something short of it. Think of it this way - if a domestic police officer interviewing your son waterboarded him and got a confession, what would you label what the police did to him? Torture! To call it any kind of "interrogation" is to prove Orwell correct.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Just wondering if you think how we handled people in the past is worst than what WE ARE CURRENTLY DOING. That is using drones like they are video games and killing (rather than abusing) not only terrorists, but the people around them like their wives and kids. What should we do with the people from the President on down who are killing people without a trial more than a decade after we were bombed???
    Further, how many of us believe that the practice of torture is no longer happening because the government says so?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Just wondering if you think how we handled people in the past is worst than what WE ARE CURRENTLY DOING. That is using drones like they are video games and killing (rather than abusing) not only terrorists, but the people around them like their wives and kids. What should we do with the people from the President on down who are killing people without a trial more than a decade after we were bombed???
    You're changing the subject, but I'll address the point.

    1) Whether we should torture suspected terrorists or not is a valid question. As I said, if we decide as a country that we should officially sanction torture as a valid interrogation technique, then we should do that with open eyes, and admitting that's what we have decided to do. Denying we engaged in torture, to avoid making that decision, is just the coward's way of avoiding making that tough moral decision. My own view is torture is a counterproductive technique, and I believe that because the people who spend careers interrogating people have found that to be the case - that information derived from torture is unreliable - they tell you what they think might stop the torture, period. If that's a confession, you'll get a confession, no matter what they actually did. If they believe the torture will stop by implicating others, they'll implicate anyone they can think of if they believe it will stop the torture. It's also morally repugnant but frankly so is war and killing people so I can't with a good conscience object to torture but be OK with sending drones, etc.

    2) Our drone program and how it is sometimes used is as morally repugnant and, in my somewhat uninformed opinion, as self defeating as our torture program. I don't support it.

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