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Thread: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

  1. #251
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Because you have someone not fighting, but capture. Someone without the ability to defend or even try. You have to get another human being to inflict on another in a systematic and cruel way. It's more deliberate. It's more harmful to both the tortured and the person doing the torturing. It lasts with people far more than battle.

    And again, no one is prevented from dying. No evidence of that claim has been presented. It's a myth some simply want to believe.
    Once again, as even you yourself acknowledged, in modern combat most of the people "killed in battle" are utterly helpless and defenseless as well.

    I suppose you are right that something lasts "far more than battle", because virtually all of the people the U.S. hurt lived through it.

    And from the report everyone is talking about, ONE person in U.S. custody is referred to as dying.

    Do you really think that someone who is waterboarded suffers more than a guy in an SUV hit by a Hellfire missile? Or that the guy in the SVU is any less helpless when killed by a missile he can't see fired from a drone he has no idea is there than a guy strapped down in a prison?

  2. #252
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbabgone View Post
    Sounds like you and the Dem staffers have it covered.
    No matter what anyone showed you/them you/they could refuse to accept it with SOME excuse.
    And actually, I believe your/their excuse is "well, we would have gotten that information anyway" ... that one really closes the book nicely.

    What about no interviews and working backward from the conclusion?
    That was okay too?
    No, it's called being through, and making sure the claim is backed you properly. As for the interviews see what DemSoc put up above.

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  3. #253
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Both parties would have preferred this report to NOT be released, to remain swept under the rug where it had been for years.

    That's because both parties enabled such practices by looking the other way when it happened. General Taguba admitted that back in 2008.

    America's moral compass has been spinning for quite some time now. Never look to the government for moral guidance.
    Exactly.
    But, if there can be any political advantage to releasing the report, then they're willing to do it, then spin it so fast that it makes people dizzy just watching it. It's all the fault of the Republicans! It saved American lives! It wasn't really "torture", but (insert made up name here)!

    The bottom line is that losing the moral high ground was not worth any information that might have come from torturing prisoners, and that any information so obtained is always suspect. America's enemies and her citizens (at least the ones who have been paying attention) have known all along that torture included more than the one individual having been waterboarded. Now, the cynics among us have had our cynicism confirmed by knowing beyond any doubt that we were lied to.
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    Interveiwing the torturers?
    That would be the way to do it, certainly. It will also have to be done. We cannot just leave this as it is.

  5. #255
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayton3 View Post
    Once again, as even you yourself acknowledged, in modern combat most of the people "killed in battle" are utterly helpless and defenseless as well.

    I suppose you are right that something lasts "far more than battle", because virtually all of the people the U.S. hurt lived through it.

    And from the report everyone is talking about, ONE person in U.S. custody is referred to as dying.

    Do you really think that someone who is waterboarded suffers more than a guy in an SUV hit by a Hellfire missile? Or that the guy in the SVU is any less helpless when killed by a missile he can't see fired from a drone he has no idea is there than a guy strapped down in a prison?
    Yes, an innocent person died. Not a combatant. Not even collateral damage (a sickening term). But a poor guy trying to take care of his family who was turned in by the actual enemy to gain acceptance with our troops and get intel he used against us. The poor family man was just handy. We killed him.

    But that's just another trouble with torture. I believe the report says at least 26 innocent people were tortured.

    As for the waterboarding, I believe it often lasts longer, as the CIA reports. War makes everyone the bad guy, true enough. But torture is saying not only are we bad, but we're evil. It's not a necessarily part of war, especially since there are far more effective methods.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  6. #256
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    What part don't you understand about not crossing a Judicial Inquiry that could result in criminal charges? Do you think that has anything to do with it?
    Absolutely did. Thats what my post stated of page 35 of the report... So that is the reason why they didnt get to interview any of the CIA officials... But then again its important to notice that the Senate Intelligence Committee did however have access to the "CIA’s own internal evaluation of its interrogation practices. Known as the Panetta Review (after then CIA Director Leon Panetta), the report came to some critical conclusions that matched the Senate’s conclusions." http://reason.com/blog/2014/12/09/whose-fault-is-it-cia-werent-interviewed . So they did have access to documents


  7. #257
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, everything you have ever linked has been disputed. Not verifiable.
    By your counterfactual "well we don't know we couldn't have gotten the same information with other means" positions. But if you'd like to know more specifics, feel free to follow that link or actually look up what the people who were involved in the program have said about it. There is a good reason why the Senate Democrats refused to include their testimony and evidence in their report. Because, as even Democrats admit, they were looking for a partisan report, not necessarily a holistic or truthful one.
    Killing in battle is one thing. Torturing is another.
    Yes, and he was complaining that we droned an American citizen just because the guy was a member of AQAP and connected to multiple attacks on the homeland.
    And many here, admittedly not you, throw their morals out the door on this issue. They ignore the evil in torture, and run with their hatred. They only changed when it concerned Obama.
    actual torture (which I do not believe we engaged in) does indeed have evil in it. So does killing people in their sleep, which we do, and most of what goes on in warfare - especially the kind of war that we are in now, against non-state networks who hide among civilians. There are very few black and white decisions available out there. Would you say torturing a terrorist to stop an attack is more or less morally questionable than the decision to accept the deliberate mass-killing of enemy civilian populaces during WWII?
    As for you, you seem a true believer. The only thing that bothers me is I have talked with two here who are haunted by what what they saw in terms of torture. I'm sad they have to suffer, and torture harms even those who are doing the torture, but glad to see they still have the humanity to know the evil in what was done. When you can no longer see it, something of the human being is lost.
    I'd roughly concur with the sentiment behind this. The actual torture I've run across, yeah, bothered me then and I still have mixed feelings about it now. It probably saved my life once, I'll admit to being somewhat okay with my children having a father, my wife a husband.
    Last edited by cpwill; 12-10-14 at 12:26 PM.

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony60 View Post
    I thought the left was soooo concerned about getting the terrorists mad, and creating more terrorists. Why did the democrats release this report and endanger American live around the world? Haven't they seen enough beheadings yet?
    I am afraid, if what seems to be in the report is true, that it was necessary to publish it. American citizens need to know if their employees are breaking the law and lying to them. I can hardly believe that the guys at the CIA were as stupid as it now seems.

  9. #259
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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    especially since there are far more effective methods.
    It would be highly effective is we just used nuclear weapons to leave the entire Arab world a smoking crater.

    "Effective" does not equal "moral".

    And I still find it difficult to understand why SIMULATING drowning is morally worse that blasting them apart with missiles?

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    Re: Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    No. We knew there had been a few incidents, where the permitted severity had been over stepped. There was talk of three or four cases. If, and I have just started reading the study, it turns out to be as wide spread the reports are saying, it is no longer a case of a few bad apples. The Administration, Justice, Judges and probably Senators seem to have known that it was going on, endorsed it and lied to the country. All of these things are intolerable in a democracy. If this turns out to be the case, it is far worse than the torture itself, bad as that might be.
    We knew that there had been one incident, that is to say, our dear leaders admitted to one incident. Anyone who has been following the so called "war on terror" has known all along that we were being fed a load.

    And you're right: That is even worse than the torture itself.

    And the fact that we've come to expect being lied to by our own government is worse yet.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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