• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Senate panel releases scathing report on CIA interrogation...

The task is to eradicate the cockroaches.

Not to become like the cockroaches.

Greetings, Dittohead not! :2wave:

:agree: But the "unacceptable" forms of torture were abandoned years ago, if I understand the report, so why bring them up now? There are probably things going on today that we don't know about that would make us very uneasy if we knew about them, but look at what we're dealing with! It's sad that innocent people are being killed or maimed by our bombings, but their own leaders treat them worse on a daily basis than we do if they don't conform to their edicts. What forms of torture are considered "acceptable" these days?
 
So you would like to see something published that explicitly explains CIA methods & practices.
Well, okay, but you have to promise that ISIS et al won't see it too.

Oh hell, none of the techniques are secret. Hell they're old school Russian practices. Even ISIS know them and how ineffective they are. That's why they just kill.
 
Well since you ask a rhetorical question I'll give you a speculative answer.
The Dems got slammed in the election last month so they need to energize their base.
But why with something so far out of left field as this, you might ask?
Well, maybe they see that Hillary is such a crappy candidate that they need to go with someone stronger ... someone who absolutely would energize the media on her side ... someone who would be a first ... someone who is just as far out in left field as this report and the NYT are.
Now who would that be?

Who, indeed? And, just who will be running against her (or him, as the case may be)?

And, if the voters are watching (not likely) then the Democrats' strategy of blaming torture on the Republicans just could backfire. But, then again, the Republicans' strategy of blaming illegal immigration on the Democrats ought to backfire as well....

However, feeding the voters bull(bleep!) like that seems to be effective. Maybe the sheeple are easily led.
 
Not much. They claim some success but offer little in support. And as we have looked at those before, we know they are less that convincing. We had much of the information already through other means. Saying they got more is not the same as showing they got more. And the bottom line is they neither studied nor can state how effective it was or wasn't. They just "feel" that it was. That's hardly enough.

I think Bob Kerrey summed up the Democrats effort best.

Sen. Bob Kerrey: Partisan torture report fails America
 
Maybe its just me.

But I would rather be alive, even if I had been hurt and was suffering nightmares..........than dead.

How anyone can claim otherwise is beyond me.

An individual decision, but you asked for a distinction concerning evil. It's not about preference.
 
Ex-CIA Directors: Interrogations Saved Lives

The committee has given us instead a one-sided study marred by errors of fact and interpretation—essentially a poorly done and partisan attack on the agency that has done the most to protect America after the 9/11 attacks...

Information provided by Zubaydah through the interrogation program led to the capture in 2002 of KSM associate and post-9/11 plotter Ramzi Bin al-Shibh. Information from both Zubaydah and al-Shibh led us to KSM. KSM then led us to Riduan Isamuddin, aka Hambali, East Asia’s chief al Qaeda ally and the perpetrator of the 2002 Bali bombing in Indonesia—in which more than 200 people perished.

The removal of these senior al Qaeda operatives saved thousands of lives because it ended their plotting. KSM, alone, was working on multiple plots when he was captured.



Ex-CIA Directors: Interrogations Saved Lives - WSJ
 
Yes, yes... why save lives if it means putting a murdering, terrorist, sub-human in a diaper? or perhaps listen to music they don't like after bedtime? Totally worth it. Imagine all the money we are saving in Pampers now. Our loved ones can be blown to little bits with a smile on their collective faces due to this kind of thinking.

Oh, there is no question that the reporters and good people often mix up thing that are torture with things that are not. Waterboarding is a very good example. Three goes of it as it was allowed were unpleasant, but not torture by any stretch of the imagination. 184, on the other hand, would probably qualify, as would 700 hours of sleep deprivation.
 
Considering that the enhanced interrogation is not torture nothing is being denied. It is the left trying to twist the language of things they supported years ago but now is coming back to haunt them with liberal donors, its just about money like everything else.

I here this claim alot mostly from those on the Right. So, I'm curious: What is your definition of "torture"?

I think alot of people consider torture exclusive as an act of causing severe pain to the body, i.e., bamboo sticks under finger nails, shock treatment and the like. But torture can also be construed as an act that causes extreme anguish to the body or the mind. As such, waterboarding, sleep deprivation, exposing a person to loud music for extended periods of time could all be considered forms of torture.

I think for many of us in the U.S., we're accustomed to the Rambo movies or imagines of Vietnam POWs where their feet are beaten w/thin bamboo sticks or are brutally beaten. I wonder if those who see torture exclusively this way would also consider a man or woman placed in a hot box laying out in the hot sun for hours to be a form of punishment or torture.

If you want to believe that torture is limited exclusively to those physical acts that cause pain to the body, then the so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques authorized by the GWB Administration isn't torture. But if you believe torture can include acts that inflict extreme anguish to the body or mind, then such acts would be torture as well.
 
Greetings, Dittohead not! :2wave:

:agree: But the "unacceptable" forms of torture were abandoned years ago, if I understand the report, so why bring them up now? There are probably things going on today that we don't know about that would make us very uneasy if we knew about them, but look at what we're dealing with! It's sad that innocent people are being killed or maimed by our bombings, but their own leaders treat them worse on a daily basis than we do if they don't conform to their edicts. What forms of torture are considered "acceptable" these days?

No form of torture should be deemed "acceptable".

Yes, look who we're dealing with. Evil people. Cockroaches. Let's not become like them by attempting to defeat them. The US has to be better than ISIS.
 
That's still opinion. Not much else.

Well, it seems you're willing to go to great lengths to accept what has been widely exposed as opinion masquerading as a "report" from the Democrats, so I'm not sure that standard is helping your cause.
 
Oh hell, none of the techniques are secret. Hell they're old school Russian practices. Even ISIS know them and how ineffective they are. That's why they just kill.

This is a ridiculous assertion. If the purpose is to gain intelligence, killing the subject is the very worst thing you can do. Claiming ISIS just kills people since torture is ineffective is committing a pretty obvious category error.
 
So, if the report proves the CIA did unspeakable things, what should happen next? What should the Obama Administration do?

I don't think it will be the Obama Administration that will do anything. I think worst case, the International community will start demanding people from the GW Bush Administration be brought up on war crimes.
 
I don't think it will be the Obama Administration that will do anything. I think worst case, the International community will start demanding people from the GW Bush Administration be brought up on war crimes.

Which would set a precedent and then every President after who the international community would demand the same thing - like Obama for assassination of innocents using drone strikes. The more politicians in jail the better, right?
 
I don't think it will be the Obama Administration that will do anything. I think worst case, the International community will start demanding people from the GW Bush Administration be brought up on war crimes.

Which international community?
 
I don't think it will be the Obama Administration that will do anything. I think worst case, the International community will start demanding people from the GW Bush Administration be brought up on war crimes.

The actions of the "international community" is to be expected. That is one of the reasons I agree with the Clinton Administrations renouncing of membership in the ICC, and both the Bush Administration and Obama Administration continuation of that decision. Let the "international community" rant all they want.
 
I think Bob Kerrey summed up the Democrats effort best.

Sen. Bob Kerrey: Partisan torture report fails America

Doesn't Kerrey, who recently lost his bid for reelection in Nebraska, understand that the partisanship shown is all on his side of the aisle - or does he and he's saying he doesn't like it? Looks like the latter to me, and kudos to him for stating his opinion, which I agree with. :thumbs: Feinstein may have just given our enemies what they need as propaganda to use against us! Perhaps she should consider retiring if this is the best she can do for America - she is 81 years old, and a multi-millionaire who apparently doesn't fear terrorists.
 
Good morning, Pero. :2wave:

I don't understand this at all. Feinstein seems to be angry about the way the midterms turned out, but the voters have spoken. They were not thinking about Feinstein when they went into the voting booth, so why put this report out for the world to see about events that happened years ago, and were corrected years ago? I always sort of liked her, but this seems like vindictiveness on her part, which disappoints me about her, and could do great harm to our country and our personnel serving all over the world.

Perhaps you are correct in thinking this is a payback to the CIA for spying on her committee, but wasn't there a better way to handle that to keep it in-house? And more importantly, why were years spent compiling all the things the CIA was doing a long time ago? Don't they have enough to do? Does she think that Democrat President's have not used the CIA to get information they need or want? c'mon.....

Pol, when it comes to politics so little passes the common sense taste.
 
Oh did you mean Feinstein and her staff members trying to do thinking for others. Also not calling for any depositions?
To do thinking? Not the thought police here man. Analyzing over 6 million documents isnt "trying to do thinking for others".

What part about sensationlization don't you get? Like he says at the end.




But you can still object to the conduct, you can still hold people accountable if you need to without releasing these kinds of sensational details, which harm American national security interests, and harm our ability to fight terrorism here and now......snip~
Ohh i get it now. Americans should not know what we did, it should all be secret, secret. No need to show what we did to people. No need to show we tortued, and abused people. No need to show how inhuman we became after 9/11. No need for transparency, no need for public knowledge, no need to inform the electorate, no need to learn from history. Spoken like a true neo-con, wait he is a neo-con




Seems even a Neo Con can get it Right. :mrgreen:
Now thats funny.
Whats funny is how you talk about others and their Objectivity while defending Feinsteins Report which is completely without any Objectivity whatsoever.
4 year study analyzing 6 million documents isnt objective? Notice how the GOP leadership isnt saying that this study is "false" or anything along those lines they are playing the national security card.
 
Well, it seems you're willing to go to great lengths to accept what has been widely exposed as opinion masquerading as a "report" from the Democrats, so I'm not sure that standard is helping your cause.

No, as I have said, this isn't new and I've given clear examples that are verifiable, that meet my standard, that show it gave us misinformation or no information and cost the live of an innocent person. Asking that they do the same isn't being unreasonable.
 
This is a ridiculous assertion. If the purpose is to gain intelligence, killing the subject is the very worst thing you can do. Claiming ISIS just kills people since torture is ineffective is committing a pretty obvious category error.

You assume they need to get intel.

The point is, they are ignorant of these techniques. And they are no more effective for them.
 
Doesn't Kerrey, who recently lost his bid for reelection in Nebraska, understand that the partisanship shown is all on his side of the aisle - or does he and he's saying he doesn't like it? Looks like the latter to me, and kudos to him for stating his opinion, which I agree with. :thumbs: Feinstein may have just given our enemies what they need as propaganda to use against us! Perhaps she should consider retiring if this is the best she can do for America - she is 81 years old, and a multi-millionaire who apparently doesn't fear terrorists.

Hi Polgara. My take is the latter as well. I'm impressed with his candor, and given the partisanship that dominates the environment today, I'm impressed with his spelling out why he reached the conclusion he did. As someone who served on the committee himself, I have to assume he is quite qualified to speak on the matter.

Most telling to me is his comments about lack of recommendation contained in the report. When one considers how the international community will take the reports "findings", I think Kerrey's admonishment of his fellow Democrats for what he sees as a purely partisan project, is well placed.
 
Back
Top Bottom