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Thread: Factory orders fall for third straight month

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    Re: Factory orders fall for third straight month

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    So why do for profit colleges exist? Why would a student go there rather than a taxpayer subsidized community college at a fraction of the cost?
    As far as I can tell, they exist to defraud veterans via GI bills.

    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Factory orders fall for third straight month

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    As far as I can tell, they exist to defraud veterans via GI bills.

    Well, it's obvious a high level of bias is at play here, so I think I'll just leave you to it.

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    Re: Factory orders fall for third straight month

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Well, it's obvious a high level of bias is at play here, so I think I'll just leave you to it.
    LOL. I actually was coming back to consider toning that down.

    Making profits by giving substandard education to people who risk their lives for this country and making taxpayers pay for it bothers me. For profit colleges seem like the education equivalent of payday loans.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Factory orders fall for third straight month

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    LOL. I actually was coming back to consider toning that down.

    Making profits by giving substandard education to people who risk their lives for this country and making taxpayers pay for it bothers me. For profit colleges seem like the education equivalent of payday loans.
    A degree from a fully accredited for profit school can hardly be called sub-standard. Perhaps you should look a little deeper into what the majority of these schools are doing before closing your mind to them.

    What disturbs me more, is the willingness to loan people money who in most cases have no credit history, on a dream about the future they may not come close to having, and then making it impossible to get out from under. Dangling a carrot, and then feeding them a poison apple is criminal in my view.

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    Re: Factory orders fall for third straight month

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    A degree from a fully accredited for profit school can hardly be called sub-standard. Perhaps you should look a little deeper into what the majority of these schools are doing before closing your mind to them.

    What disturbs me more, is the willingness to loan people money who in most cases have no credit history, on a dream about the future they may not come close to having, and then making it impossible to get out from under. Dangling a carrot, and then feeding them a poison apple is criminal in my view.
    The wall street journal reports that they're of little value to employees wishing to get hired.

    "How do employers really view graduates of for-profit colleges like the University of Phoenix and ITT Education?
    No better—or worse—than they view people who received the same qualifications from community colleges, according to*a new working paper*from the National Center for Analysis of Longitudinal Data in Education Research. And listing an associate’s degree or certificate from a for-profit college gives a young candidate no great boost over someone who skipped college entirely."

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-ATWORKB-1995

    Admittedly, it's not a four year degree, but it's a reference point to extrapolate on.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Factory orders fall for third straight month

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    The wall street journal reports that they're of little value to employees wishing to get hired.

    "How do employers really view graduates of for-profit colleges like the University of Phoenix and ITT Education?
    No better—or worse—than they view people who received the same qualifications from community colleges, according to*a new working paper*from the National Center for Analysis of Longitudinal Data in Education Research. And listing an associate’s degree or certificate from a for-profit college gives a young candidate no great boost over someone who skipped college entirely."

    For-Profit College Degrees Don

    Admittedly, it's not a four year degree, but it's a reference point to extrapolate on.
    I'm not trying to be too dismissive, but this paragraph in the WSJ article causes me to question the point they are trying to push.

    While the paper does not measure full hiring outcomes for graduates of for-profit and community colleges, it does track employers’ initial indications of interest in applicants, a loose proxy for individuals’ potential to be hired at some point.

    The paper does not measure full hiring outcomes? Initial indications?

    I think there is much more to the decision process a student uses to attend a for profit school. I would consider a study valid if it approached an analysis of benefit while taking these variables into account. Available classes, specific areas of learning not offered at community colleges, and a host of other reasons are not addressed. For example, a student may be interested in an I.T. career, but the local community college only offers the class at certain times, or does not have the seat space to accommodate the demand. These are legitimate and real life considerations.

    Further, as I mentioned before, there are students who couldn't qualify to enter community colleges due to their basic skills requirements in areas of knowledge that a student may have no interest in. History? A student seeking skills in electrics may have no interest at all in investing time to take such a class.

    I do think student loans are far too easy to obtain, whether going to a for profit or not. I think it's a scam, and as I written before, should be eliminated but for specific degrees where there is substantial need.

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    Re: Factory orders fall for third straight month

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    "Universities" is the plural of university -- "Universities function to educate us on proper usage of the English language."

    "University's" is possessive -- "It's the University's function to educate us on proper usage of the English language."

    I learned this before I attended a university.

    I am of the opinion that "use", not "usage", would be the correct word choice there.

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    Re: Factory orders fall for third straight month

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    I'm not trying to be too dismissive, but this paragraph in the WSJ article causes me to question the point they are trying to push.

    While the paper does not measure full hiring outcomes for graduates of for-profit and community colleges, it does track employers’ initial indications of interest in applicants, a loose proxy for individuals’ potential to be hired at some point.

    The paper does not measure full hiring outcomes? Initial indications?

    I think there is much more to the decision process a student uses to attend a for profit school. I would consider a study valid if it approached an analysis of benefit while taking these variables into account. Available classes, specific areas of learning not offered at community colleges, and a host of other reasons are not addressed. For example, a student may be interested in an I.T. career, but the local community college only offers the class at certain times, or does not have the seat space to accommodate the demand. These are legitimate and real life considerations.

    Further, as I mentioned before, there are students who couldn't qualify to enter community colleges due to their basic skills requirements in areas of knowledge that a student may have no interest in. History? A student seeking skills in electrics may have no interest at all in investing time to take such a class.

    I do think student loans are far too easy to obtain, whether going to a for profit or not. I think it's a scam, and as I written before, should be eliminated but for specific degrees where there is substantial need.
    I'm not claiming the article is a smoking gun against for profit schools, but corroborated with default rates, debt rates, graduation rates, etc. it paints a picture of a system that doesn't benefit its students, the community, or the taxpayers who provide student loans that pay for the profits these institutions make.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Factory orders fall for third straight month

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    I'm not claiming the article is a smoking gun against for profit schools, but corroborated with default rates, debt rates, graduation rates, etc. it paints a picture of a system that doesn't benefit its students, the community, or the taxpayers who provide student loans that pay for the profits these institutions make.
    Some might benefit more than others, but that is true of many schools. I believe that access to easy student loans is the reason all colleges and universities are largely unchecked when it comes to their decision-making. If you have a shopping mall and 6 Olympic sized swimming pools on campus and people are struggling to work and pay tuition, then maybe you have forgotten your primary mission.

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    Re: Factory orders fall for third straight month

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    I'm not claiming the article is a smoking gun against for profit schools, but corroborated with default rates, debt rates, graduation rates, etc. it paints a picture of a system that doesn't benefit its students, the community, or the taxpayers who provide student loans that pay for the profits these institutions make.
    Again, you have to consider the reason a student would turn to a for profit school, over a far less costly community college. Why do you think this influencing factor appears to be absent in studies like the one you posted?

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