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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Somewhere back in the dim distant pages of this thread, and in others on the same topic, there was a good amount of discussion on the meaning of "homicide" and discussion about how could a death be ruled a homicide but no indictment be forthcoming. Several people, myself among them, pointed out that homicide just means to intentionally take a life with no implication as to whether there was any wrong doing.

While that's true for the dictionary definition it is not true under NY Law. NY Penal Law 125:




That means 2 things.

1. The ME made a determination that a crime was committed and that Garner's death was not a blameless accident.
2. Given that criminally negligent homicide falls under the homicide defintion in NY the DA should have presented it.

The only way Panteleo can walk without an indictment is because there's confusion as to who caused the death, not really likely given the video, or because the DA failed to charge criminally negligent homicide. There is no excuse for that, especially given the statutory definition of homicide.

In short the DA threw the case. I sorely hope the Staten Island voters make him unemployed next chance they get.

How the DA threw the case was by leaving off lesser charges of aggravated assault, reckless endangerment and official oppression.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Well that's just great ain't it...keep on going after cops, and before long there won't be anyone stupid enough to be one.
Lots and lots of people want to be cops.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

As I've said repeatedly intent isn't a question the GJ looks at. The statute essentially takes intent off the table.

Have you read the statute? Can you offer reasonable alternative interpretation?
Why a Medical Examiner Called Eric Garner's Death a 'Homicide'

But “homicide” in this context doesn’t mean what you think. It’s one of five categories medical examiners use to label causes of death and it indicates that “someone’s intentional actions led to the death of another person,” says Gregory G. Davis, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners. The other four labels are suicide, accident, natural, and undetermined, Davis says."

The ME's declaration of Homicide has zero impact or meaning. The Prosecutor would not base any decisions to present and would not present the case based on the descriptor 'homicide'. It is a category. A label. Nothing else. It is meaningless.

There IS NO application of NY Penal law in this case. There is no charge, no trial, and certainly no conviction.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Why a Medical Examiner Called Eric Garner's Death a 'Homicide'

But “homicide” in this context doesn’t mean what you think. It’s one of five categories medical examiners use to label causes of death and it indicates that “someone’s intentional actions led to the death of another person,” says Gregory G. Davis, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners. The other four labels are suicide, accident, natural, and undetermined, Davis says."

The ME's declaration of Homicide has zero impact or meaning. The Prosecutor would not base any decisions to present and would not present the case based on the descriptor 'homicide'. It is a category. A label. Nothing else. It is meaningless.

There IS NO application of NY Penal law in this case. There is no charge, no trial, and certainly no conviction.

I understand what you're saying but why would the medical definition of a term trump the legal definition in a legal setting? That frankly doesn't make any sense to me. Penal law is what matters in courtrooms.

I haven't said that the prosecutor bases his decision on the category on the death certificate. What I've said is that the Grand Jury can't not-indict because they believe no crime was committed because under penal law - which matters in a courtroom - the grand jury has to assume a homicide is crime. The prosecutor certainly has the discretion to decide against bringing a case against a specific individual for whatever reason he wants.

You might find this illuminating reading Eric Garner’s Homicide Solved | Simple Justice. Greenfield is a respected NYC criminal defense attorney who does this stuff for a living and on who's writings I'm basing my opinion. In the comments he addresses the legal vs medical distinction.
 
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Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Well that's just great ain't it...keep on going after cops, and before long there won't be anyone stupid enough to be one.

Nice. In order to have cops, we have to allow them to take down and kill people guilty of misdemeanors.

I disagree. I think we can have police protection from violent felons without living in a police state.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I understand what you're saying but why would the medical definition of a term trump the legal definition in a legal setting? That frankly doesn't make any sense to me. Penal law is what matters in courtrooms.

I haven't said that the prosecutor bases his decision on the category on the death certificate. What I've said is that the Grand Jury can't not-indict because they believe no crime was committed because under penal law - which matters in a courtroom - the grand jury has to assume a homicide is crime. The prosecutor certainly has the discretion to decide against bringing a case against a specific individual for whatever reason he wants.

You might find this illuminating reading Eric Garner’s Homicide Solved | Simple Justice. Greenfield is a respected NYC criminal defense attorney who does this stuff for a living and on who's writings I'm basing my opinion. In the comments he addresses the legal vs medical distinction.
The medical examiners label is the ONLY applicable use of the word homicide. There has been no charges, trial nor conviction to which the penal description of homicide applies. Its a stupid system and I understand why you were confused.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Sunny Hostin, a black woman prosecutor who's commenting on CNN now on this issue, just made an interesting comment.

She said she's been on the side of the push for cops to be outfitted with cameras so that when incidents happen there can be video of the events that courts and grand juries can see what happened and now we have this incident, fully videoed by a bystander, and it seems to have been irrelevant to the outcome of the grand jury.

Thankfully, the feds are going to investigate the case.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Thankfully, the feds are going to investigate the case.

I appreciate the sentiment, but the federal justice department, and not just under this President, is far too political and nothing good will come from an orchestrated witch hunt. If the feds along with the state and local officials want to investigate the rationale for the enforcement of minor bylaws and tax policy, I'd be all for that. But I'm sure the feds are going to try to make this a civil rights circus which will do nothing but inflame the situation.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I appreciate the sentiment, but the federal justice department, and not just under this President, is far too political and nothing good will come from an orchestrated witch hunt. If the feds along with the state and local officials want to investigate the rationale for the enforcement of minor bylaws and tax policy, I'd be all for that. But I'm sure the feds are going to try to make this a civil rights circus which will do nothing but inflame the situation.

Then we will have to respectfully disagree.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I appreciate the sentiment, but the federal justice department, and not just under this President, is far too political and nothing good will come from an orchestrated witch hunt. If the feds along with the state and local officials want to investigate the rationale for the enforcement of minor bylaws and tax policy, I'd be all for that. But I'm sure the feds are going to try to make this a civil rights circus which will do nothing but inflame the situation.

I have no doubt Holder will do just that and has already started. He is also being encouraged by Mayor di Blasio who has also made this about race instead of being honest about forcing his police force to treat those who sell untaxed cigarettes like other criminals thanks to new laws. Well this week it backfired on di Blasio when NYC cops started signing waivers not permitting him to attend their funeral if killed in the line of duty. Something the mayor traditionally does.

It reads like this;

Don’t Insult My Sacrifice

I, _____________________, as a New York City police officer, request that Mayor Bill de Blasio and City Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito refrain from attending my funeral services in the event that I am killed in the line of duty. Due to Mayor de Blasio and Speaker Mark-Viverito's consistent refusal to show police officers the support and respect they deserve, I believe that their attendance at the funeral of a fallen New York City police officer is an insult to that officer's memory and sacrifice. _______________________ Signature

After what di Blasio did to his police department, if I were a cop and got a call from the mayor needing assistance, I'd be real tempted to stop off at Dunkin Donuts on the way, have a couple of custard filled with a cup of coffee before responding.

Cops tell de Blasio: Stay away from our funerals | New York Post
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I have no doubt Holder will do just that and has already started. He is also being encouraged by Mayor di Blasio who has also made this about race instead of being honest about forcing his police force to treat those who sell untaxed cigarettes like other criminals thanks to new laws. Well this week it backfired on di Blasio when NYC cops started signing waivers not permitting him to attend their funeral if killed in the line of duty. Something the mayor traditionally does.

It reads like this;

Don’t Insult My Sacrifice

I, _____________________, as a New York City police officer, request that Mayor Bill de Blasio and City Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito refrain from attending my funeral services in the event that I am killed in the line of duty. Due to Mayor de Blasio and Speaker Mark-Viverito's consistent refusal to show police officers the support and respect they deserve, I believe that their attendance at the funeral of a fallen New York City police officer is an insult to that officer's memory and sacrifice. _______________________ Signature

After what di Blasio did to his police department, if I were a cop and got a call from the mayor needing assistance, I'd be real tempted to stop off at Dunkin Donuts on the way, have a couple of custard filled with a cup of coffee before responding.

Cops tell de Blasio: Stay away from our funerals | New York Post
And the mayor's irony-free response is “Incendiary rhetoric like this serves only to divide the city, and New Yorkers reject these tactics".
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

And the mayor's irony-free response is “Incendiary rhetoric like this serves only to divide the city, and New Yorkers reject these tactics".
Yes, de Blasio's racist comments directed toward his police force weren't a bit "incendiary". :roll: What is so sickening about his rhetoric is the officer's lieutenant is a black female and was there during the arrest of Garner. The order to crackdown on untaxed cigarettes came from the Chief of Department who is also black and the highest ranking uniformed policeman. He gets his orders from the Police Commissioner who was appointed this year by de Blasio. The Commissioner gets his orders from de Blasio.

The dirty truth is the new harsher penalties for selling untaxed cigarettes in NYC went into effect this year. It was the former Mayor Bloomberg that was responsible for that one. He is also responsible with his war on tobacco raising taxes on a pack of cigarettes so high that it has created the black market problem in NYC. They say almost half the cigarettes consumed in NYC are untaxed. If a person consumed a pack a day at NYC rates, in a week's time they would have put out $91.00. Middle class/lower incomes can't afford it so the black market took off. This is where loosies, selling one cigarette at a time for around .50 to poor people became popular. They could buy 6 smokes for the day at around 3.00 and not have to put out $13 bucks for a pack they did not have. It also helped people like Garner supplement his income, tax free. Whether you bought a loosie or a full pack from him, he was making money on the deal. Now between the loss revenue due to untaxed cigarettes and rich people leaving the city in droves due to the burden of higher taxes put on them, these big government types who need revenue to fund it saw how much they were losing to the black market they had created and the word came from the top to crack down on untaxed cigarettes. They need smokers paying the taxes. After all it is smokers that pay the taxes that fund SHIIP (Medicaid, Seniors and children) and other government programs so non-smokers don't have to. Even this year when Obama started talking about his new daycare proposal he announced his answer on how to fund it: from smokers. The President proposed a 94 cent per pack increase in the federal cigarette tax, with revenue going to support a much needed expansion of early childhood education. Every damn program out of the federal government comes with a responsibility of states to provide a certain amount to receive federal funding.

If anyone is to blame for Garner's death it is big intrusive government always needing revenue to feed the monsterous kitty they have created. Because that is what led to the police of NYC being forced to uphold the laws of their city that treats such a crime as selling untaxed cigarettes darn near the same as a criminal charged with grand theft auto. De Blasio needs revenue and he went the easy route to find it just like mayors and governors across this country do everyday. Sin taxes. Yet now he, Holder, Obama, Sharpton all big government guys want to blame it on racism. *puke*
 
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Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

The medical examiners label is the ONLY applicable use of the word homicide. There has been no charges, trial nor conviction to which the penal description of homicide applies. Its a stupid system and I understand why you were confused.

We're going to have to disagree here. Thank you for the discussion.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I have no doubt Holder will do just that and has already started. He is also being encouraged by Mayor di Blasio who has also made this about race instead of being honest about forcing his police force to treat those who sell untaxed cigarettes like other criminals thanks to new laws. Well this week it backfired on di Blasio when NYC cops started signing waivers not permitting him to attend their funeral if killed in the line of duty. Something the mayor traditionally does.

It reads like this;

Don’t Insult My Sacrifice

I, _____________________, as a New York City police officer, request that Mayor Bill de Blasio and City Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito refrain from attending my funeral services in the event that I am killed in the line of duty. Due to Mayor de Blasio and Speaker Mark-Viverito's consistent refusal to show police officers the support and respect they deserve, I believe that their attendance at the funeral of a fallen New York City police officer is an insult to that officer's memory and sacrifice. _______________________ Signature

After what di Blasio did to his police department, if I were a cop and got a call from the mayor needing assistance, I'd be real tempted to stop off at Dunkin Donuts on the way, have a couple of custard filled with a cup of coffee before responding.

Cops tell de Blasio: Stay away from our funerals | New York Post


Criminal? Get real.

First it's not clear that Garner was selling anything when he was arrested. Second selling loose cigarettes, strictly speaking, isn't a crime, selling "packages" is. Third, even then it's about as criminal as a guy who rounds up his charitable donations on his income taxes. We're not talking Ted Bundy here.

As for the cops they can do what they want. di Blasio is just as much the Mayor of Eric Garner as he is of the cops.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Criminal? Get real.

First it's not clear that Garner was selling anything when he was arrested. Second selling loose cigarettes, strictly speaking, isn't a crime, selling "packages" is. Third, even then it's about as criminal as a guy who rounds up his charitable donations on his income taxes. We're not talking Ted Bundy here.

As for the cops they can do what they want. di Blasio is just as much the Mayor of Eric Garner as he is of the cops.

Gaius, you are focusing on one video of three that was taken by Garner's friend that doesn't show the cops first approaching him for the arrest. So now you assume that these cops were just harassing a black man with no just cause even though the lieutenant, a black female was there during the arrest. You also fail to include it was minority store owners in the area that called the police over Garner's illegal activity in front of their place of business. This has nothing to do with race.

The new harsher laws/fines involving selling any untaxed cigarettes went into effect this year. You get arrested and take a trip downtown. The police officers are under orders to enforce the laws.

But hey let's make it racist instead of addressing excessive taxation on cigarettes which has created the black market.

Let's get Holder, de Blasio, Obama, and Sharpton making it about race.

And just for you here is a video of a protest group over this racially charged case marching down the streets of NYC. Listen to what they are chanting.

"What do we want?" "Dead Cops!"

 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Gaius, you are focusing on one video of three that was taken by Garner's friend that doesn't show the cops first approaching him for the arrest. So now you assume that these cops were just harassing a black man with no just cause even though the lieutenant, a black female was there during the arrest. You also fail to include it was minority store owners in the area that called the police over Garner's illegal activity in front of their place of business. This has nothing to do with race.

The new harsher laws/fines involving selling any untaxed cigarettes went into effect this year. You get arrested and take a trip downtown. The police officers are under orders to enforce the laws.

But hey let's make it racist instead of addressing excessive taxation on cigarettes which has created the black market.

Let's get Holder, de Blasio, Obama, and Sharpton making it about race.

And just for you here is a video of a protest group over this racially charged case marching down the streets of NYC. Listen to what they are chanting.

"What do we want?" "Dead Cops!"



I never said, and I don't believe, it had anything to do with race. It has to do with overzealous enforcement of a trivial law and excessive use of force. Had it been a white guy, a Spanish guy or an Asian guy I'd feel the same way. I won't discount that race didn't come into the GJ deliberations at a subconscious level - Staten Island is the whitest county in New York - but that would be complete speculation. That said I do not believe the arrest itself was racially motivated.

I know it's a law, though it's not clear to me that the law as written applies to individual cigarettes. My contention is that all laws are not created equal. This is a trivial offense. 4-5 cops plus a supervisor's time, even for an hour, cost the city
$400. Tack on the OT that Pantaleo gets and you're talking something like a thousand dollars spent because some guy evaded a couple bucks in taxes. And now tack on millions that the family will get from the wrongful death suit. And most importantly that some poor slob got killed.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

We're going to have to disagree here. Thank you for the discussion.
I appreciate the discussion as well...but how can you say "I disagree" when you are PROVEN to be wrong? The only HONEST response from you would have been "Huh...I did not know that. I was wrong". You can still BELIEVE it is a criminal homicide but there is NO WAY you can now still believe the coroner declared it a criminal homicide or anything else other than LABEL it a death in the homicide category. Criminal homicide is not determined with charges, trial, and conviction. Dont 'believe' that...its fact. It doesnt require a 'belief'.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I appreciate the discussion as well...but how can you say "I disagree" when you are PROVEN to be wrong? The only HONEST response from you would have been "Huh...I did not know that. I was wrong". You can still BELIEVE it is a criminal homicide but there is NO WAY you can now still believe the coroner declared it a criminal homicide or anything else other than LABEL it a death in the homicide category. Criminal homicide is not determined with charges, trial, and conviction. Dont 'believe' that...its fact. It doesnt require a 'belief'.

Simply because since I believe that since the a Grand Jury proceeding is a legal proceeding that the legal definition is the operative one. In fact the way I see it since no one is actually charged that supports my claim even more.

You have absolutely proven what the medical definition is. What you haven't proven is that that is the one that's used at the Grand Jury. That same objection - that the medical definition may be the one used in court - was raised and rebutted in the link I supplied.

Calling it a homicide at the grand jury level does not make it irrefutably a crime at trial. It simply means that the grand jury really can't look into that aspect of the case. He's not guilty and can claim no intent and or justification at his trial.

Fwiw, I think the Grand Jury as currently used is terrible. I don't know whether it needs overhaul, or to be tossed completely but it doesn't seem to work - speaking generally here and not specific to this case. That said however I find the statements of a guy who practices NY criminal law daily more compelling that that of a magazine writer or TV talking heads who don't practice here. He may be wrong, but logically he seems right.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Simply because since I believe that since the a Grand Jury proceeding is a legal proceeding that the legal definition is the operative one. In fact the way I see it since no one is actually charged that supports my claim even more.

You have absolutely proven what the medical definition is. What you haven't proven is that that is the one that's used at the Grand Jury. That same objection - that the medical definition may be the one used in court - was raised and rebutted in the link I supplied.

Calling it a homicide at the grand jury level does not make it irrefutably a crime at trial. It simply means that the grand jury really can't look into that aspect of the case. He's not guilty and can claim no intent and or justification at his trial.

Fwiw, I think the Grand Jury as currently used is terrible. I don't know whether it needs overhaul, or to be tossed completely but it doesn't seem to work - speaking generally here and not specific to this case. That said however I find the statements of a guy who practices NY criminal law daily more compelling that that of a magazine writer or TV talking heads who don't practice here. He may be wrong, but logically he seems right.
So that is that dance I figured was coming...

Never mind...
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Mr. Garner's grave provided by NYC. No headstone.

NYC should put up a headstone that reads: "Here Lies A 27 Cent Tax Cheat" as the city's warning to others. Not collecting sales tax from a customer is serious fucking business in NYC.

Eric-Garner-Grave_022730800869.jpg





A Visit to Eric Garner's Grave: Unmarked, Untended & Totally Neglected
 
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Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

His neighbors, the Grand Jury reviewed the evidence the prosecutor had and determined there was insufficient evidence to declare a crime occurred. If no crime occurred why would anyone go to trial?

I wish we could understand the grand juries thinking. At least in the Ferguson grand jury we were given evidence they had. For this one nothing.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Yes, de Blasio's racist comments directed toward his police force weren't a bit "incendiary". :roll: What is so sickening about his rhetoric is the officer's lieutenant is a black female and was there during the arrest of Garner. The order to crackdown on untaxed cigarettes came from the Chief of Department who is also black and the highest ranking uniformed policeman. He gets his orders from the Police Commissioner who was appointed this year by de Blasio. The Commissioner gets his orders from de Blasio.

The dirty truth is the new harsher penalties for selling untaxed cigarettes in NYC went into effect this year. It was the former Mayor Bloomberg that was responsible for that one. He is also responsible with his war on tobacco raising taxes on a pack of cigarettes so high that it has created the black market problem in NYC. They say almost half the cigarettes consumed in NYC are untaxed. If a person consumed a pack a day at NYC rates, in a week's time they would have put out $91.00. Middle class/lower incomes can't afford it so the black market took off. This is where loosies, selling one cigarette at a time for around .50 to poor people became popular. They could buy 6 smokes for the day at around 3.00 and not have to put out $13 bucks for a pack they did not have. It also helped people like Garner supplement his income, tax free. Whether you bought a loosie or a full pack from him, he was making money on the deal. Now between the loss revenue due to untaxed cigarettes and rich people leaving the city in droves due to the burden of higher taxes put on them, these big government types who need revenue to fund it saw how much they were losing to the black market they had created and the word came from the top to crack down on untaxed cigarettes. They need smokers paying the taxes. After all it is smokers that pay the taxes that fund SHIIP (Medicaid, Seniors and children) and other government programs so non-smokers don't have to. Even this year when Obama started talking about his new daycare proposal he announced his answer on how to fund it: from smokers. The President proposed a 94 cent per pack increase in the federal cigarette tax, with revenue going to support a much needed expansion of early childhood education. Every damn program out of the federal government comes with a responsibility of states to provide a certain amount to receive federal funding.

If anyone is to blame for Garner's death it is big intrusive government always needing revenue to feed the monsterous kitty they have created. Because that is what led to the police of NYC being forced to uphold the laws of their city that treats such a crime as selling untaxed cigarettes darn near the same as a criminal charged with grand theft auto. De Blasio needs revenue and he went the easy route to find it just like mayors and governors across this country do everyday. Sin taxes. Yet now he, Holder, Obama, Sharpton all big government guys want to blame it on racism. *puke*

"Taxes killed Eric Garner!"

What a load of intellectually dishonest crap.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

"Taxes killed Eric Garner!"

What a load of intellectually dishonest crap.
Well...if not for the taxes he would not have been in that situation.

But it was still mistakes on the part of the cops (and possibly him to some degree as well?) that killed him.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Nice. In order to have cops, we have to allow them to take down and kill people guilty of misdemeanors.

I disagree. I think we can have police protection from violent felons without living in a police state.
Strawman
 
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