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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Richard Pryor back in '78 talks about chokeholds being used by police.

NSFW:
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

So reading a bit more (still happy to see anything else people can link to. I know there are very well versed individuals on this case. I'm definitely not one of them)...I see some reports saying there was no damage to the windpipe/throat. And even with the jugular vein, it seemed that it simply compressed it according to the CNN report, not actually doing damage that would've sustained after the choke hold was released.

Still trying to see more, but thus far it would almost seem to be me...

The officer in question absolutely would need action taken against him professional for using a hold that is against regulations. (I'd also like to know whether or not the escalation he did, to that degree and that quickly, was correct or not according to regulation).

However, I am beginning to see how a grand jury could possibly not convict just him, as crazy as that could be. The autopsy apparently listed the pressure being put on the back by the other individuals...after the choke had been completely released...as being partially to blame as well. So there's a legitimate question as to whether or not it would be the choke, or the burking, that more substantially contributed to the death. It also seemed to indicate, by listing the other contributing factors, that if not for his other health problems it likely would not have resulted in death.

Originally, when I was under the impression the individual actually lost consiousness while in the choke hold and eventually died...the lack of a indictment seemed absolutely crazy. Even tonight, when talking to a friend who stated he thought the claim was that there was damage to his throat which caused him to be unable to adequately breath and that led to his death...the lack of an indictment seemed crazy.

Having seen the video and the little bit of autopsy information I've been able to find so much...it seems less crazy. I still think it's unfortunate no indictment was made, and it still seems like it probably should have, but I'm beginning to see reasons why it would possibly come out in this fashion unfortunately.

I'm now more and more intrigued by this case. I gotta pass out now ,but I may have to start looking for more info on it.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

You can speculate all you want on chokeholds, how/why/whether they kill, whether or not you understand how, or believe that, treatment by the police caused his death, all based on imperfect understanding and having seen a video.

The bottom line is that the medical examiner who did the autopsy and does have medical training ruled the death a homicide. That ruling is far and away more credible than pages of speculation.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Zyphlin said:
So reading a bit more (still happy to see anything else people can link to. I know there are very well versed individuals on this case. I'm definitely not one of them)...I see some reports saying there was no damage to the windpipe/throat. And even with the jugular vein, it seemed that it simply compressed it according to the CNN report, not actually doing damage that would've sustained after the choke hold was released.

Still trying to see more, but thus far it would almost seem to be me...

The officer in question absolutely would need action taken against him professional for using a hold that is against regulations. (I'd also like to know whether or not the escalation he did, to that degree and that quickly, was correct or not according to regulation).

However, I am beginning to see how a grand jury could possibly not convict just him, as crazy as that could be. The autopsy apparently listed the pressure being put on the back by the other individuals...after the choke had been completely released...as being partially to blame as well. So there's a legitimate question as to whether or not it would be the choke, or the burking, that more substantially contributed to the death. It also seemed to indicate, by listing the other contributing factors, that if not for his other health problems it likely would not have resulted in death.

Originally, when I was under the impression the individual actually lost consiousness while in the choke hold and eventually died...the lack of a indictment seemed absolutely crazy. Even tonight, when talking to a friend who stated he thought the claim was that there was damage to his throat which caused him to be unable to adequately breath and that led to his death...the lack of an indictment seemed crazy.

Having seen the video and the little bit of autopsy information I've been able to find so much...it seems less crazy. I still think it's unfortunate no indictment was made, and it still seems like it probably should have, but I'm beginning to see reasons why it would possibly come out in this fashion unfortunately.

I'm now more and more intrigued by this case. I gotta pass out now ,but I may have to start looking for more info on it.
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zyph, the whole incident including the chokehold put stress on an already stressed heart.


A non-violent man who had a history of non-violent misdemeanors was killed by violence put upon him by some jock cops, that induced his heart attack.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Grant said:
It's the tax system that's corrupt and Eric Garner is just another victim of government overkill. (pun intended) When you have the IRS attacking with SWAT Teams and their officials taking the fifth, and confiscatory taxes created because a bureaucrat feels strongly on an issue (the soda tax would fall into the same category) then it may be time to reflect on some of the social harm many of these strong-arm tactics and consequent social problems create.

There are governmental problems everywhere, including the entire infrastructure, and yet these incompetents are assuming ever more power over the American people. While the Leftists clearly supported the Nevada rancher against the IRS I'm surprised that so many Conservatives support what an obviously overzealous police force did to Eric Garner.

Rather than focusing on small timers like Eric Garner, who was only responding to a need in the marketplace and selling a legal product, there are far bigger issues that should be attracting more attention from those Americans who look for a more conservative and traditional attitude to what's happening in the country.

American Inertia :: SteynOnline
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A need in the marketplace and selling a legal product? Selling untaxed cigarettes for a profit is not legal. Why pass laws if we are not going to enforce them?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
zyph, the whole incident including the chokehold put stress on an already stressed heart.


A non-violent man who had a history of non-violent misdemeanors was killed by violence put upon him by some jock cops, that induced his heart attack.
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Garner had a history of assault and resisting arrest.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ObamacareFail said:
A need in the marketplace and selling a legal product? Selling untaxed cigarettes for a profit is not legal. Why pass laws if we are not going to enforce them?
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Both those assertions are obviously true. This is a bad law and, as we can see, it was poorly enforced to the point where a man died. Bureaucrats and small time politicians are making laws based on their own points of view without considering the public's point of view, or the consequences it may have on the average citizen and society. The broken window theory worked but now the police have gone beyond that and into violently and aggressively going after the petty. The police have now done more harm than Eric Garner ever did.

NYPD No. 3's order over loose smokes led to Garner chokehold death - NY Daily News

Rough justice in America: Too many laws, too many prisoners | The Economist
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

apdst said:
Garner had a history of assault and resisting arrest.
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So what? Everyone has histories.

There was no evidence of him really resisting arrest here, more with him being annoyed with the cop. Moreover, was the crime worthy of the force applied? Where was the reasonable approach to police work by the officers?

What is it about people that they want to villify the victim, particularly if he is a black man? Does this somehow mean his death is justifiable? He was also a good man, as per the evidence you suggested... and, as per the evidence you presented, he his a history of being arrested for petty offenses that seemed to have been escalated. Could he be that he had no tolerance for being harassed by the police?

Of course, since you seem to think histories are relevant, the cop is not without his own questionable history.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...es-wrongful-arrest-lawsuits-article-1.2035138
http://www.ibtimes.com/who-daniel-p...ed-eric-garner-was-accused-misconduct-1733094

It appears that he has a history of crossing the line with excessive force. He probably should have been fired a long time ago. Likely they will finally fire him now. Good riddance!
 
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Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Misterveritis said:
I believe the Grand Jury had final say.
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You are correct... well done.

You prefer the mob, apparently.
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Where you get this **** from is beyond me... the comedy channel? :lol:

Given that my stance is within the norms of our civil society and you are asking for the same actions that democratic party lynch mobs used in times past who do you really believe is emotionally compromised?
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My stance is within the norms of our civil society as well. What part is confusing you because maybe I can help.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

apdst said:
Garner had a history of assault and resisting arrest.
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Good. That justifies killing him. Whew. Cops can sleep better now.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Rainman05 said:
What you believe is irrelevant. You are just a meaningless person and the progressives who are in positions of authority are doing propaganda and indoctrination and causing all these problems.
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.


WTF! Your comments are not only irrelevant to anyone but yourself, but are stupid to boot. Apparently, you eat propaganda and bull**** for breakfast!
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Dittohead not! said:
You can speculate all you want on chokeholds, how/why/whether they kill, whether or not you understand how, or believe that, treatment by the police caused his death, all based on imperfect understanding and having seen a video.

The bottom line is that the medical examiner who did the autopsy and does have medical training ruled the death a homicide. That ruling is far and away more credible than pages of speculation.
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homicide in of itself does NOT indicate a crime was committed

i know that has been said here.....but apparently that fact isnt getting through
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

gdgyva said:
homicide in of itself does NOT indicate a crime was committed

i know that has been said here.....but apparently that fact isnt getting through
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It does not indicate a crime was committed, necessarily.
It does indicate that someone was killed by another person.

He didn't die of donuts and cheeseburgers. He died at the hands of another person. He was killed.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Dittohead not! said:
It does not indicate a crime was committed, necessarily.
It does indicate that someone was killed by another person.

He didn't die of donuts and cheeseburgers. He died at the hands of another person. He was killed.
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okay

does someone killing someone else automatically mean a crime has been committed?

people are killed in this country everyday by other people.....only some of those are criminal acts

most are accidents.......

some are self defense

the GJ ruled no crime was committed.......

there were NUMEROUS reasons this man died.......and his health was one of them

there is a lot of blame to go around.......laws, police, him......they are ALL partly to blame

the death is tragic.......but not criminal
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

gdgyva said:
okay

does someone killing someone else automatically mean a crime has been committed?

people are killed in this country everyday by other people.....only some of those are criminal acts

most are accidents.......

some are self defense

the GJ ruled no crime was committed.......

there were NUMEROUS reasons this man died.......and his health was one of them

there is a lot of blame to go around.......laws, police, him......they are ALL partly to blame

the death is tragic.......but not criminal
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It is indeed tragic. It did not have to happen. No one is saying it was murder, but it was homicide. It could have been prevented, very easily. That it wasn't is a lesson to be learned. It's much like someone dying in a car accident. Was it murder? No, but it was certainly the result of someone's mistake. Was it a crime? probably not, but it was certainly something that should be prevented.

and brushing this incident of as, "Oh, well, it was just some fat guy selling cigarettes on the street. If he was killed as the result of an arrest gone bad, then that's just how things are," is not the way to go about it.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
zyph, the whole incident including the chokehold put stress on an already stressed heart.
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Now that makes sense, and as I tried to research more that seems to be ultimately what it was. Which just confused me because that was very different than the impression I was getting most of the time when I was paying just off-handed attention to this issue, which seemed to imply that the guy died while in a choke hold.

Being taken down, choked, piled on top of by 4 men, having your head smashed to the ground....all combined with an individual with health issues...causing significant stress on the heart leading to cardiac arrest maks a ton of sense.

A non-violent man who had a history of non-violent misdemeanors was killed by violence put upon him by some jock cops, that induced his heart attack.
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Agree completely here. Like I said, at the very least I think the cop was in the wrong, and based on what I've seen/read of this I'd say wrong enough to be worthy of a criminal trial to see if there was criminal wrong doing on his part. And ABSOLUTELY agree that it's ridiculous it even got to that point over something as simple as selling a cigerette on the street.

However, having seen more info, I can at least understand how a jury may've not chose to go with an indictment. I still don't think that's the right choice, but I simply can see some minor avenues that I think could lead a person to possibly go the direction the GJ went...even if I don't think I would have gone that direction based on the info I've seen and read.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Zyphlin said:
Now that makes sense, and as I tried to research more that seems to be ultimately what it was. Which just confused me because that was very different than the impression I was getting most of the time when I was paying just off-handed attention to this issue, which seemed to imply that the guy died while in a choke hold.

Being taken down, choked, piled on top of by 4 men, having your head smashed to the ground....all combined with an individual with health issues...causing significant stress on the heart leading to cardiac arrest maks a ton of sense.



Agree completely here. Like I said, at the very least I think the cop was in the wrong, and based on what I've seen/read of this I'd say wrong enough to be worthy of a criminal trial to see if there was criminal wrong doing on his part. And ABSOLUTELY agree that it's ridiculous it even got to that point over something as simple as selling a cigerette on the street.

However, having seen more info, I can at least understand how a jury may've not chose to go with an indictment. I still don't think that's the right choice, but I simply can see some minor avenues that I think could lead a person to possibly go the direction the GJ went...even if I don't think I would have gone that direction based on the info I've seen and read.
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I think the grand jury failed to indict for numerous reasons, one, we are conditioned that any scoffing is "resiting arrest", and I bet that prosecuter wasn't bringing his "A" game to that grand jury.


Staten Island DA Didn't Ask Garner Grand Jury to Consider Reckless Endangerment Charge: Source | NBC New York
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/08/n...ge-police-officers-in-fatal-actions.html?_r=0
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Dittohead not! said:
It is indeed tragic. It did not have to happen. No one is saying it was murder, but it was homicide. It could have been prevented, very easily. That it wasn't is a lesson to be learned. It's much like someone dying in a car accident. Was it murder? No, but it was certainly the result of someone's mistake. Was it a crime? probably not, but it was certainly something that should be prevented.

and brushing this incident of as, "Oh, well, it was just some fat guy selling cigarettes on the street. If he was killed as the result of an arrest gone bad, then that's just how things are," is not the way to go about it.
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i am not making light of the situation

could things have gone differently? sure

like i said i think there is plenty of blame to go around......from the city council/mayor who wanted more emphasis placed on arresting/stopping these crimes

to the officers who might have used other tactics confronting the subject.....why werent they equipped with tasers? or why didnt they use pepper spray to subdue him?

to the subject himself who apparently was tired of being hassled by cops for trying to make a few bucks......and instead of just peacefully going along, he decided he wanted to make a stand

plenty of blame to go around.......and the city will end up paying some settlement to the widow and his kids

tragic, stupid, and unnecessary death.......but nothing criminal.......and that is the part too many are having a hard time dealing with
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

gdgyva said:
i am not making light of the situation

could things have gone differently? sure

like i said i think there is plenty of blame to go around......from the city council/mayor who wanted more emphasis placed on arresting/stopping these crimes

to the officers who might have used other tactics confronting the subject.....why werent they equipped with tasers? or why didnt they use pepper spray to subdue him?

to the subject himself who apparently was tired of being hassled by cops for trying to make a few bucks......and instead of just peacefully going along, he decided he wanted to make a stand

plenty of blame to go around.......and the city will end up paying some settlement to the widow and his kids

tragic, stupid, and unnecessary death.......but nothing criminal.......and that is the part too many are having a hard time dealing with
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Why is there a need to subdue him? He isnt harming anyone or being threatening. The officers can inform him he is under arrest. And then work on getting cuffs on him standing up unless he proves to be trying to hurt someone. Its not illegal to be grumpy. All he did was say "leave me alone" and "im tired of this".

There is no need to ride him like a bull, or tackle him, or practice your martial arts moves on him, or try to punk him, or try to overwelm him with blitz tactics. Hes just some guy who happens to be big.

Now if that big son of a bitch starting swinging punches at cop faces I could see the desperation to subdue him.

The cops put themselves in danger by suprise attacking him the way they did. (although Garner proved to be a gentleman and never once tried to hurt any of they even as they wolf-packed him). And the cops put Garner in danger by assaulting him in a provoking manner.

I want to live in a world where if a cop sees another cop breaking a law all the cops dogpile the cop, and instead use diplomacy and people skills with what Mr. White Collar would call "the scum of society". Cops that rather pull their gun on a cop, that is threatening someone and blow the rogue cop away, than hurt an innocent.

Eventually all police WILL be 100% monitored and the more these events are captured the more public will put cops in a place they need to be.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
Why is there a need to subdue him? He isnt harming anyone or being threatening. The officers can inform him he is under arrest. And then work on getting cuffs on him standing up unless he proves to be trying to hurt someone. Its not illegal to be grumpy. All he did was say "leave me alone" and "im tired of this".

There is no need to ride him like a bull, or tackle him, or practice your martial arts moves on him, or try to punk him, or try to overwelm him with blitz tactics. Hes just some guy who happens to be big.

Now if that big son of a bitch starting swinging punches at cop faces I could see the desperation to subdue him.

The cops put themselves in danger by suprise attacking him the way they did. (although Garner proved to be a gentleman and never once tried to hurt any of they even as they wolf-packed him). And the cops put Garner in danger by assaulting him in a provoking manner.

I want to live in a world where if a cop sees another cop breaking a law all the cops dogpile the cop, and instead use diplomacy and people skills with what Mr. White Collar would call "the scum of society". Cops that rather pull their gun on a cop, that is threatening someone and blow the rogue cop away, than hurt an innocent.

Eventually all police WILL be 100% monitored and the more these events are captured the more public will put cops in a place they need to be.
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the question is what could he have done....the first rule of law enforcement is to go home safe at the end of your shift

so....with safety in mind, subdual is what every law enforcement officer is TRAINED to do

they cant hurt you.....you "usually" dont hurt them with subdual tactics

calmer heads prevail, and everyone eventually goes home safely

it didnt work here.....but that is the training that every cop gets

and even people without weapons can be very dangerous.....especially ones the size of Mr Garner

tasers, pepper spray, batons.....all used to subdue subjects

and yes....if you are a perp and dont acquiesce immediately, you too will know what subdual means

i have zero issue with cops using these techniques.......saves lives on both sides
 
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