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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Do you know what homicide means when a coroner rules it?
Yes. It means that the intentional actions of another human being caused Garner's death. (Not that there was an intent to kill, only that deliberate actions caused the death.)

And again, the ME found that his health was a contributing factor, but that "the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police" (emphasis added) caused Garner's death.

I.e. if the police hadn't used excessive force on him, he'd very likely still be alive.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Μολὼν λαβέ;1064060074 said:
The words I chose state fact.

Hello Μολὼν λαβέ.

The facts are, Garner was still breathing when the EMT showed up. He later died of a heart attack. You can't have a heart attack if you have stopped breathing.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

As you've been shown by the evidence we do have, no, your chosen words and their implication are absolutely false.

You can believe your opinion or you can believe the facts. The police officer committed a homicide by killing Eric Garner.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Well, you finally got one right.

Must be why you've been running away from me all thread. :)

You deserve your long awaited victory dig in the last comment.

Seems really stupid though, but considering the dealers involved, not a surprise. There are like ten reservations in NY state, all of which sell cigs with NO taxes, not state or federal. You can get close to the same deal online. Your exposure to the ATF is about the same as the fellow going to another state to get them.

And not just stupid for the vendors, but the smokers as well.

Keep telling us about your sob story on cigarette peddlers and how they have a special place in hell. :lol: That's going to really move us away from the fact that you could never tell us in which part of the video police told someone to move along. ;)
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Yes. It means that the intentional actions of another human being caused Garner's death. (Not that there was an intent to kill, only that deliberate actions caused the death.)

And again, the ME found that his health was a contributing factor, but that "the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police" (emphasis added) caused Garner's death.

I.e. if the police hadn't used excessive force on him, he'd very likely still be alive.

That is not the same quote of the coroner's determination that has been posted here. In the original quote it mentions body positioning, NOT the prone position. And the GJ found there was no or insufficient evidence of excessive force, thus, you're just making stuff up.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Must be why you've been running away from me all thread. :)



Keep telling us about your sob story on cigarette peddlers and how they have a special place in hell. :lol: That's going to really move us away from the fact that you could never tell us in which part of the video police told someone to move along. ;)

Go back to trying to troll others now. Got your number.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Compression of the neck isn't a collapsed windpipe. That's how someone is choked to death.
I didn't say anything about a "collapsed windpipe." Again: You asked, and I quote: "The ME said the police killed him? Link?"

The media reported the ME's opinion on August 1st. After this much commentary on the topic, there's no excuse for not knowing this critical element.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Μολὼν λαβέ;1064060107 said:
You can believe your opinion or you can believe the facts. The police officer committed a homicide by killing Eric Garner.

Yes, that would be accurate if read without your obvious bias. However, in this case the GJ found there was no or insufficient evidence of excessive force. So that makes this a legal homicide. You really need to try to understand what that determination means when used in terms of autopsy.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I didn't say anything about a "collapsed windpipe." Again: You asked, and I quote: "The ME said the police killed him? Link?"

The media reported the ME's opinion on August 1st. After this much commentary on the topic, there's no excuse for not knowing this critical element.

You're correct, the ME does state the police actions directly resulted in his death along with several contributing factors. However, the GJ found no/insufficient evidence that the police acted illegally.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

They did call for medical right away, and they are not equipped to give mouth to mouth, not to mention CPR isn't always indicated and would have actually been harmful here. He was still breathing.

I was going off of what was being put out. If he did stop breathing, then someone should have helped him. If the EMTs were there before he actually stopped breathing, then they should have been doing the actions, but I had been told that he was dead when they put him on the stretcher. I just don't know what went on in between. There is no reason that they couldn't have given CPR if he did stop breathing though and they should be equipped for it, otherwise that is a major problem with the police in that area. Definitely expect police to be able to perform basic medical and first aid, including knowing CPR and being able to do it. So, did the medical personnel show up before or after he stopped breathing?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Go back to trying to troll others now. Got your number.

Clownboy, you want to tell us at what minute the police told him to leave? ;)
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Hello Μολὼν λαβέ.

The facts are, Garner was still breathing when the EMT showed up. He later died of a heart attack. You can't have a heart attack if you have stopped breathing.

On Aug. 1, a New York City medical examiner determined that the cause of death in the Garner case was “homicide,” specifically the neck compressions from the Pantaleo’s chokehold and “the compression of [Garner’s] chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police,” according to spokeswoman, Julie Bolcer.

Nobody should dispute that Pantaleo committed homicide—that fact was determined Aug. 1.

So homicide means the officer killed him.

http://time.com/3618279/eric-garner-chokehold-crime-staten-island-daniel-pantaleo/
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

The victim is the government that wants to tax cigarettes at about 200%. Why else would the government think that using at least five officers to affect a single arrest for selling "loosies" was a good idea? This was a case of government (the huge nanny state?) gone wild on many levels.
Good gravy.

This has nothing to do with cigarette taxes. The reason why five officers showed up is because the NYPD always tries to overwhelm suspects when backup is called, or if there's an incident.

For example, in November a 20 yr old man (Donovan Lawson) jumped a turnstile for the subway. For the crime of skipping out on a $2.75 fare, an officer beat the unarmed Donovan on the head with a nightstick and dragged him out of the station. Within minutes, 2 more officers showed up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVoOQbDT1QE

Blaming the use of excessive force on "cigarette taxes" is beyond ridiculous. It's not because of cigarette laws, it's because the checks and balances on the NYPD are failing, and they can abuse citizens with impunity.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Μολὼν λαβέ;1064060145 said:
So homicide means the officer killed him.

Homicide in every definition of the word means one person caused the injuries that led to another person's death. The fine points such as intent can be defined. However, when an event such as this is labeled a homicide it means one person acted in such a way that it led to another person's death.

That people are sitting here trying to point at heart attacks and asthma as the reason for this death is like saying Oswald didn't kill JFK, his brain exiting his skull did. It's disgustingly dishonest but what are we going to do? From now on, if a woman is murdered and raped, her rapist didn't kill her, the internal bleeding did. Someone dies in a car accident? The drunk driver didn't kill him, his body flying through the screen did. You have to love the full circle of apologism that has gone on in this thread.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Death of Eric Garner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just as every news report I've read says. I don't know if he died in the ambulance or the hospital.

Once the ambulance report comes out I'd like to see it. The 4 EMS workers were put on leave after the incident so I'm hoping there's some follow up. I won't take Wikipedia as a source and most of the other sources like the NY Post, NY Times, Channel 4 - they don't identify where he actually died other than to say he was pronounced dead at Richmond University Medical Center.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Μολὼν λαβέ;1064060107 said:
You can believe your opinion or you can believe the facts. The police officer committed a homicide by killing Eric Garner.

It's a fool that listens to the sensationalism through media, who wasn't there, and has very limited privy to the evidence/testimony the Grand Jury was given.

But there are a great number of you that feel that way. How someone can come to such a conclusion without all the facts is beyond me, but there are a lot of folks like you. Many of them are laying on the ground over bridges, stopping traffic, and not allowing EMT workers to answer calls for help. Same with the police. Not to mention the disruption they are placing on the lives of many people. These "organized" protests by special interest groups are keeping cops off their beat just to maintain order. So many other folks are put at risk of the really bad people out there.

Today I heard of a protest going on in Denver over this case, where a police officer on a bicycle was there to aid in students protests to insure order, only to have a car rev up his engine and run him down dragging him for several feet. He is in critical condition after going through several surgeries. And the group mostly black he was assisting, cheered and shouted, "run over him again"!

I only hope there is a special place in Hell for those who have instigated this rush to justice, over race baiters and a media out of control.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Yes. It means that the intentional actions of another human being caused Garner's death. (Not that there was an intent to kill, only that deliberate actions caused the death.)

And again, the ME found that his health was a contributing factor, but that "the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police" (emphasis added) caused Garner's death.

I.e. if the police hadn't used excessive force on him, he'd very likely still be alive.

Incorrect definition. You inserted a word in there that isn't always the case - "intentional". You do know that involuntary manslaughter is a homicide, or maybe you don't? There are no "intentional actions" that result in death in involuntary manslaughter. And by definition, involuntary manslaughter is a homicide.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Yes, that would be accurate if read without your obvious bias. However, in this case the GJ found there was no or insufficient evidence of excessive force. So that makes this a legal homicide. You really need to try to understand what that determination means when used in terms of autopsy.

The bias is all on you. I have stated facts.

Did the officer kill Eric Garner?

Yes or no?

Let's see you dodge this one.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

It's a fool that listens to the sensationalism through media, who wasn't there, and has very limited privy to the evidence/testimony the Grand Jury was given.

But there are a great number of you that feel that way. How someone can come to such a conclusion without all the facts is beyond me, but there are a lot of folks like you. Many of them are laying on the ground over bridges, stopping traffic, and not allowing EMT workers to answer calls for help. Same with the police. Not to mention the disruption they are placing on the lives of many people. These "organized" protests by special interest groups are keeping cops off their beat just to maintain order. So many other folks are put at risk of the really bad people out there.

Today I heard of a protest going on in Denver over this case, where a police officer on a bicycle was there to aid in students protests to insure order, only to have a car rev up his engine and run him down dragging him for several feet. He is in critical condition after going through several surgeries. And the group mostly black he was assisting, cheered and shouted, "run over him again"!

I only hope there is a special place in Hell for those who have instigated this rush to justice, over race baiters and a media out of control.

Yes, we know. Every white/black/asian person out there who supports the protests is a race baiter. Hey, you ever prove that Obama claimed police were out to harass black men?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Μολὼν λαβέ;1064059942 said:
Then you didn't read the coroner's report. The police officer surely did make sure he stopped breathing forever. It was ruled a homicide. In other words, the officer killed him.

Are you claiming that the police officer intended for Garner to die?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I was going off of what was being put out. If he did stop breathing, then someone should have helped him. If the EMTs were there before he actually stopped breathing, then they should have been doing the actions, but I had been told that he was dead when they put him on the stretcher. I just don't know what went on in between. There is no reason that they couldn't have given CPR if he did stop breathing though and they should be equipped for it, otherwise that is a major problem with the police in that area. Definitely expect police to be able to perform basic medical and first aid, including knowing CPR and being able to do it. So, did the medical personnel show up before or after he stopped breathing?

I posted the reports, he died either in the ambulance or the hospital. He had a heart attack in the ambulance so he was definitely alive after the scene.

As to officers giving CPR, it's not about training in CPR, they all have that. It's about the protective gear EMT's use to shield them from disease transmission during CPR. And chest compressions while someone is breathing is definitely not a helpful thing.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

That is not the same quote of the coroner's determination that has been posted here.
Oh, right. DP is the authoritative site for the ME's quote. :roll:


In the original quote it mentions body positioning, NOT the prone position. And the GJ found there was no or insufficient evidence of excessive force, thus, you're just making stuff up.
No, dude, I'm not making anything up. This quote is all over the media.

BBC News - Eric Garner: No charges in NY chokehold case
NYPD officer who killed Eric Garner in chokehold won't face criminal charges - Vox
Eric Garner 'chokehold' death: Attorney General to launch civil rights probe - Americas - World - The Independent
Death of Eric Garner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Actual Facts of The Eric Garner Case

Just do yourself a favor, and recognize that you're wrong on this point.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Yes, we know. Every white/black/asian person out there who supports the protests is a race baiter. Hey, you ever prove that Obama claimed police were out to harass black men?
Obama likes it when Mayors like de Blasio imply his police force is racist and untrustworthy in a nationally covered speech. Obama later called and praised de Blasio for his words.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

You're correct, the ME does state the police actions directly resulted in his death along with several contributing factors. However, the GJ found no/insufficient evidence that the police acted illegally.
That does not disprove the claim that the police killed him.

Nor are we required to accept that the grand jury acted perfectly... or even in the interests of justice. Or perhaps you believe that every criminal proceeding and/or decision of a court is 100% correct, and beyond any further analysis and/or criticism?
 
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