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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

clownboy said:
Nope, not before he started resisting. Btw, the chokehold wasn't immediate. Look at the stills, in the first part the officer has one arm under Eric's left arm and one around his neck, later he moves into a chokehold as Eric is still struggling against being cuffed.
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That's called a no-gi rear lapel choke, or a modified Mata leão, the under-hook ads as an anchor point to apply the choke.



Lapel Choke


Obviously tyrone has better technuique
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Hatuey said:
Keep telling yourself that. You've had your arguments destroyed and now you're reduced to saying you didn't base your argument on what if when your entire argument is based on the possibility, that maybe, peut-être, quizas, quizas, quizas, there will be more to this that we don't know and saves your ridiculous support of police brutality.
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False, Hatuey. You can't know the specifics of something you don't have access to, namely the missing part of the encounter before the decision to subdue Garner was made. That is it. The whole of my argue is nothing more than a purely logical conclusion: you can't know information with certainty what you don't have access to. No what ifs. Just logically pointing out your unsupported claims.

Telling you that your assumptive narrative is baseless is not a "What if" argument.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

vesper said:
To make it even more insane. This is Chief of Police Phillip Banks III. He is the one that issued the order to crackdown on the sale of loosies.
nypd-chief-dept-recounts-stop-youth-article-1.1302771


Banks gets his marching orders from the Police commissioner William J. Bratton, who was appointed by Mayor Bill de Blasio and took office on January 1, 2014.

Bratton gets his marching orders from Mayor de Blasio.

deblasio_sharpton.jpg


de Blasio threw his police department under the bus, and implied they were untrustworthy and racist. After his divisive speech. Obama personally called and thanked him.


Police fury at mayor’s racial smear | New York Post
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Isn't the electorate who voted in this mayor the same people who made up the Grand Jury? I can't see how their decision, in either case, was infallible.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
Apparently because sometime in the past he sold loosies. I find it a bit of an over reaction.
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Depends entirely on what transpired that changed the police officers demeanor from standing back with arms folder to surrounding garner and jointly taking him to the pavement. None of us know what happened in that moment because that footage was either cut from his friends video, or his friend didn't film it.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

vesper said:
You may want to hold off on that "chokehold" ban business. Apparently the Chief of Police Bratton, is backing away from it.
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The medical examiner didn't back away from it.

Bratton basically has to support the rank and file, or else he is screwed. Oh, and the NYPD barely enforces the ban on choke holds. The use has reduced since 1993, but it definitely hasn't stopped.

And again, if you actually watch the video, it's pretty hard to deny it.


And from the same article it states that "A judge granted Staten Island DA Dan Donovan’s request to unseal information about the grand jury proceedings, including that the panel heard from 50 witnesses, watched four videos and was told how much force cops can legally use in arrests."
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They have released very little information so far. It's nothing compared to the Ferguson release.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Visbek said:
No one -- NO ONE -- has accused Garner of attempting to flee, or using force on anyone. There is absolutely no reason why such information would be restricted to the grand jury. If he had acted that way, there is NO QUESTION the NYPD would have released that information.
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You said that before, but you don't actually have the information necessary to make that claim with any certainty. The Grand Jury heard 50 witnesses testimony, are you claiming to know the content of their seal testimony?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
Depends entirely on what transpired that changed the police officers demeanor from standing back with arms folder to surrounding garner and jointly taking him to the pavement. None of us know what happened in that moment because that footage was either cut from his friends video, or his friend didn't film it.
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I don't see anything that would warrant an escalation of violence on the officers part. Do you think this was the best way to handle the situation? honestly.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
So that would point to the possibility that cigarettes had nothing to do with the confrontation, or the choice to arrest Garner. It was clearly on the top of Garner's mind when the police approached him but that doesn't mean that Garner wasn't just making incorrect assumptions in his agitated state.

What we know for certain is that the video everyone here is using to discern what happened is critically missing the part of the altercation where the police demeanor changed from folded arms and listening to Garner rant to arresting Garner. Any claim that Garner did nothing to warrant arrest is unfounded because the public simply doesn't have that information, at least not from that video.
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Whatever might be in that gap would have to be a pretty big deal, given the other footage and the comments of the witnesses.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
That's called a no-gi rear lapel choke, or a modified Mata leão, the under-hook ads as an anchor point to apply the choke.

Lapel Choke

Obviously tyrone has better technuique
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The guy on Eric Garner's back was so small compared to Garner that he couldn't even lock his hands.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
Depends entirely on what transpired that changed the police officers demeanor from standing back with arms folder to surrounding garner and jointly taking him to the pavement. None of us know what happened in that moment because that footage was either cut from his friends video, or his friend didn't film it.
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Still leaning on: What if something happened...? Lol.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Grant said:
Whatever might be in that gap would have to be a pretty big deal, given the other footage and the comments of the witnesses.
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The Grand Jury heard the testimony and interviewed all the witnesses. How many witnesses have you interviewed so far?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Hatuey said:
Still leaning on: What if something happened...? Lol.
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Nope. Just pointing out you don't actually know what happened so your certainty is baseless.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

VanceMack said:
The video is VERY telling. The police officer grabbed him from behind in a poorly locked in choke hold for 8 seconds until the man was on the ground. The hold was then released and he was held on the ground while being cuffed. He was not shouting "I cant breathe" while the 'choke hold' was applied but while he was on the ground. Thats far more indicative of a heart attack than anything else but what is certain is that it was NOT caused by a choke hold.

The fallback position is "the police caused his death". That is not correct. He decided to be combative with law enforcement and that had the EXACT SAME result it will have in ANY situation involving ANYONE. Law enforcement will win. You and everyone here arguing against the police KNOW that to be fact. NONE of you are stupid enough to openly advocate for citizens to physically resist arrest and none of you are stupid enough to actually do it yourself. He did it and you KNOW he did it. Because he did it and because he was 200 pounds overweight, had an enlarged heart, hypertension, weight caused apnea, asthma, and numerous other weight related physical ailments, when he went down he had a heart attack. The cause of death was cardiac arrest which occurred while in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.
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We can see here what the Medical Examiner had to say. Why a Medical Examiner Called Eric Garner's Death a 'Homicide'
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Hatuey said:
Who Is Daniel Pantaleo? NYPD Officer Who Killed Eric Garner Was Accused Of Misconduct Before Chokehold Death



This just gets better and better. There are 5-6 posters who have tried so hard to make these cops look justified because of those 31 priors and yet here we have a cop who gets off by getting on other people. He has two lawsuits people, not for selling cigarettes, he has them for abusing suspects. He settled one, and in the other his actions are correlated to the dismissal of charges. Lmao, this is the righteous cop people are rallying behind?
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Was the black supervisor involved in any of those incidents?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
I don't see anything that would warrant an escalation of violence on the officers part. Do you think this was the best way to handle the situation? honestly.
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What lead to the police surrounding Garner, do you know? What is your evidence?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
Nope. Just pointing out you don't actually know what happened so your certainty is baseless.
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Ah, so there is no certainty that anything of relevance happened in whatever time lapsed, there is no relevance that there are other videos which exist, but from the evidence do have we can't deduce that the conclusions of most people are wrong? :lol:
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

VanceMack said:
And LITERALLY thousands of cases that deserve scrutiny and protest, which is why it is sooooooo stupid to blow cachet on the Brown and Garner cases.
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Brown was a thug who charged a cop and got shot in the head for it. This was after he robbed a store. That was justified and the outrage over brown are stupid.


This dude, was selling loosies unarmed and was attacked for it ultimately causing his death. It's a bit different.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Deuce said:
Chokeholds were banned because they kill people.
Therefore using chokeholds is willful disregard for human life.
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Tasers kill people, too. You want those banned?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
That's called a no-gi rear lapel choke, or a modified Mata leão, the under-hook ads as an anchor point to apply the choke.



Lapel Choke


Obviously tyrone has better technuique
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Oh, also, while we are on the topic of Tyrone Glover's technique, do you know where I can send condolences to the family of the other guy in the picture? Obviously he was murdered by that lethal choke hold. :roll:
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
Again, you don't know that. You are making an assumption based on a video that cut out the moment just before the choice was made to use aggressive measures to subdue him. Your statement is ENTIRELY presumptive on what you think the missing footage or un-filmed part of the encounter involved.

What we know:

Eric Brown ranted at the police for a little while as the police stand around with arms folded--> Film cuts/missing --> Police are in position to subdue Eric Garner and then subdue him.

Neither you or I know what is in that missing portion so neither you or I are in a position to state with any certainty what happened in that missing part of the encounter.
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Who's Eric Brown? And again, it doesn't make a lick of difference what or if Garner "ranted" anything. The police don't get to kill you if you yell at them. And I don't care what happened during your so called "missing part"

All I know is what I saw from the time police laid hands on Garner until he died. That was clearly excessive force and zero justification. And yes, i'm very much in a position to know what I'm talking about.

I've spent years doing MMA. I've choked people out before and been choked out myself. I have a pretty good idea of how much force we're talking about and how much force you can apply... It's A LOT, like you feel like your head is going to be detached from you spine, like enough to burst blood vessels in your nose so that blood gushes down your throat kind of a lot. (it's a slightly violent sport :) )

So I kind of know what I'm talking about regarding personal combat. Choke holds aren't supposed to suffocate. It takes too much time and force. In fact, it's virtually impossible to suffocate someone with a choke single handedly if they're fighting back. Cut off blood and the person is out in a few seconds, suffocation takes minutes. From the time the officers first laid hands on him, Garner did NOTHING in any way shape or form to resist arrest. Nothing. He's laying on the ground clearly whimpering that he can't breathe. Do you have any idea how much self control it takes to be in that kind of situation and NOT panic and flail? Hint: it's an ungodly amount. Don't believe me, crawl under your car so that you can't move and then hold your breath until the panic sets in. Not being able to breathe + Not being able to move = mind blowing levels of panic.

And yet look at the cops position. If I had been another cop at the scene I would have decked the guy that was choking him. His body position and actions do not contribute to "subduing" (as if it was needed) Gardner. Zero. Nada. Nothing.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Hatuey said:
Ah, so there is no certainty that anything of relevance happened in whatever time lapsed, there is no relevance that there are other videos which exist, but from the evidence do have we can't deduce that the conclusions of most people are wrong? :lol:
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I can conclude from the lack of evidence that the conclusions of people who rely solely on that video are baseless.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

apdst said:
Was the black supervisor involved in any of those incidents?
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Apdst, I'm surprised you came back. Did you ever get around to answering my question after I answered yours? No?. Then, move along now, we have no time to address people who run away from questions. If ya did, point to the post #. Here's the question again:

Hatuey said:
Another blanket accusation meant to draw attention away from the issue, how odd for you apdst. Apdst simple question: Do you believe all of the conservative members who have agreed that this was a case of excessive force are race hustlers? Yes or no answer. No need to draw it out.
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Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
I can conclude from the lack of evidence that the conclusions of people who rely solely on that video are baseless.
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No, no, you're doing more than that. You're saying that there is supposedly more evidence, and asking what if that evidence makes this verdict less of a screw up.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

clownboy said:
Guess you missed the part where he was told to put his hands behind his back. Guess you missed the combative tone and actions. Guess you missed the size difference between him and the officers. Maybe you should watch the video again.
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Sorry, the police don't get to kill you for not putting your hands behind your back instantly.
 
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