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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

VanceMack said:
:lamo

Good lord....

If dood wasnt 200+ pounds overweight and had spent some time on the stairmaster, no one would have cared because he would be alive and well and probably on arrest citation # 37, instead of just #31.
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Then you would have no problem if someone jumped your wife or mother from behind with a chock hold, threw her to the concrete, while another man shoved her head into concrete and the full weigh of a man on her back - because that's tame and there is no danger of it.

You know that by your medical expertise and having participated in the autopsy. :roll:

Your end of your sentence is your cheering his death, nothing else.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Misterveritis said:
It is true that people are emotional. It is also true that watching a video does not give one all of the relevant facts. We do not put people through a trial simply so others can feel good about themselves. We have Grand Juries who evaluate the evidence the prosecutor has to determine if there is sufficient evidence to charge someone with a crime. This is a check against tyranny. Without it an officer of the government can charge anyone with any crime no matter whether there is evidence or not. By having a dozen or more of your neighbors review the evidence and then vote to charge or not, the prosecutor is stymied from being an agent of tyranny.

Justice was done. Set aside your feelings and reason.
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I'd agree with your take if the grand jury system in the US wasn't steeped in politics and wasn't conducted in private. You need transparency and fullness in order for society to accept the decisions of others. There is often disagreement with jury decisions, but when held in public courts and people have viewed all the evidence for themselves, they are less likely to be emotionally charged. Trials also allow society to judge the law itself - my point was, in a public trial, society at large can view and pass judgement on the law as it exists and move to change it. When the trial is held in private, they feel cheated.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Misterveritis said:
Fortunately it is not the one we have. The grand jury is comprised of citizens from the neighborhood where the trial is likely to take place. They are civilian citizens. They are independent of the prosecutor. They evaluate the evidence the prosecutor has, hears testimony from witnesses and then decides whether or not to charge. Where I live we use the property tax and voter registrations records as the grand jury pool. Anyone can be called and everyone who is called must present themselves for selection. Grand Juries here typically meet for one or two days. A few will meet several times over a two to three week period. Everything is done in secret.

It is a final brake against tyranny at the local level.
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Again, you'd have a point if your justice system wasn't steeped in politics. Too many in the American justice system are either elected or appointed by those who are elected. I prefer Canada's system of police oversight where a professional oversight body, beholden to no one, reviews the evidence and determines if charges should be laid. The police don't collect evidence, prosecutors don't collect or present evidence, it is done entirely independently until such time as an officer is charged with an offense and then it gets into the criminal justice system for prosecution. Politics is nowhere to be found and people in Canada have complete confidence in the process.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Grant said:
What criminal act was he committing?
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Hi Grant.
In NYC a pack of cigarettes costs between 11-13 bucks due to all the taxes placed on them. This has created a black market problem for NYC where people will purchase cigarettes in another state for much less and bring them back to NY and sell them much cheaper by the pack or loosies for a few bucks versus putting out 13 for a full pack. In January 2014 tough new penalties for selling untaxed cigarettes took effect in New York City. The city’s highest-ranking uniformed cop, Philip Banks, issued an order to crack down on loosie sales days before Garner died.
McQUILLAN: Lessons from Eric Garner's death and cigarette taxes - Washington Times
Garner has been arrested several times for selling untaxed cigarettes. Reports state the NYPD have confirmed he was part of an organized ring black marketing cigarettes. And that he had been under surveillance for some time to find out the name of his supplier . It's the merchants in the area that reported Garner to the police for his activities as he moved from one location to another to set up his business in front of their stores.
BREAKING: NYPD Confirms #EricGarner Was A Member of Organized Crime in Staten Island - GotNews
While these laws on cigarettes and the punishment/fines seem rather over the top to a lot of people, you got to understand this is NYC where Mayor Bloomberg went after cigarettes hiking taxes and banning smoking almost everywhere and was responsible for the harsher penalties that went into effect this year for selling untaxed cigarettes. Out of Garner's 30 some arrests, around 6 arrests were for selling untaxed cigarettes.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Hatuey said:
Eh, this is based on another what if isn't it? Okay, we don't have video for... what could be 3 seconds, 5 seconds, the 2 seconds it takes to send a message and what? Here, I'll get your started on your next weak argument:

What if........ (You can complete the rest of this exercise in meaningless supposition and theorizing.)
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Not a what if. It is a the missing piece that links the officers standing with hands crossed to the officers attempting to arrest Garner. My point was originally in regard to the claim that he was being arrested for no reason which is a simple assumption since the critical video to establish that either does not exist or was edited out of the video before posting it.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

whysoserious said:
I love the judgment of his supposed smoking habit and weight on this thread. I'm sure the people doing the judging are the picture of perfect health, too! Daily exercise, bi-yearly check ups, good diet...LOL
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The posters on here aren't dead and their lifestyle choices didn't appear on an autopsy report for a death that's being debated.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

vesper said:
Thanks Tres In some places on the internet it was being reported it was banned in NYC others said illegal. And in some places where it was being reported that way have since removed it.
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Glad to help Vesper. I noticed that I said my BIL was 17 years with the NYPD. That was supposed to be 27 years. Slip of the finger...I trust him more about NYPD matters than I do a bunch of posters who let Al Sharpton do their thinking for them.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Misterveritis said:
It is about right and wrong. You have chosen wrong.
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Just the opposite. I choose the believe my eyes and believe the police are fallible just like everyone else. A jury trial would have been a crucible of change. Now it's a cause celeb to be incorrectly added to Trayvon and Brown and that allows those who DO have racist views and want "revenge" more credibility. That's not something I want.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Misterveritis said:
Except for the one tiny point that I accept the Grand Jury's decision and you do not.

You have chosen tyranny over justice. I wonder why. It is very odd.
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I have chose the people over tyranny. What is odd that you cannot tell the difference.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
Soooo.. You are arguing choking someone (a inherently lethal move) isnt illegal? So if I put someone under citizens arrest for a crime (like jay walking or something) and choke them till they die then I wont be proscecuted? I mean.. you are saying that choking someone isnt illegal... so it must not be or what?
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I don't "argue" anything. I posted a fact. An NYPD officer putting a suspect in a chokehold is not illegal. It was banned by the NYPD years ago. That doesn't mean it's "illegal". If the NYPD banned beards on their officers, you don't draw the conclusion that beards are now illegal in NY. Pay attention to the posts.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Misterveritis said:
And yet the grand jury did not find sufficient evidence to charge anyone with a crime. So are you now making allegations against the district attorney, the prosecutor or the members of the grand jury? Other than your feelings what is your evidence?
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I'm questioning the process taken in NY yes. It should be reviewed.


Misterveritis said:
She did poorly by you then. Did she actually teach you that citizen control of the justice system is wrong if you disagree with a particular finding?
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She taught me to identify right and wrong. Apparently yours taught you that everything and anything the government does is "right". You work under the assumption that if the cops did it, if the GJ system says it, it must be true. How different are those views than from any others who blindly follow others without question throughout history? Or those who do the same who you criticize here on this forum? It's no different....

Misterveritis said:
Did she teach you to mistrust your neighbors when they are charged with reviewing evidence you have not seen and yet you disagree with them?
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She taught me people must earn trust, it's not given freely. If a neighbor provided cause to mistrust then yes I would not trust them.

Misterveritis said:
Did she teach you to stamp your feet and demand mob rule if you disagree with a finding? Or are you hiding behind her skirt?
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She taught me to stand up and speak the truth no matter how inconvenient. The truth is, the death of Garner was wrong - and no one will have to answer for it. Those who share your views are fine with authority killing people as long as a few others agree with them.


Misterveritis said:
Tossing out a grand jury's decision and running with the mob is what leads to tyranny.
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That's a very nice strawman congratulations. I'm have not asked for that ANYWHERE on this forum.


Misterveritis said:
When you believe your emotions should trump evidence and diminish the power of the grand jury to act as a brake on government prosecutions whose hands do you believe you are playing into? It is time for you to grow up and put away childish things.
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Again you are incorrect - this has nothing to do with emotion it has to do with facts and right / wrong.


Misterveritis said:
A grand jury reviewed the evidence. You reject their decision. You are becoming a tyrant. I wish you would see it and stop.
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The GJ was wrong. You are the tyrant here. Will you see mass killings in the future as also OK if a jury says so? How about assassinations? The "people" aren't the tyranny here - it's unfortunate you cannot see that.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
When I lived in Saddle River, the gas stations would line up with NY interlopers on weekends, hell they even drove thier kids into our neighborhood on halloween for trick or treating, (which I never got)
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Did you live close to Nixon?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Dittohead not! said:
What if ....
they treated tax evaders in the board room as harshly as they do some guy selling untaxed cigarettes?
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What if....
they treated tax evaders in Congress or tax evaders who are "activists" as harshly as they do some guy selling untaxed cigarettes?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

tres borrachos said:
What if....
they treated tax evaders in Congress or tax evaders who are "activists" as harshly as they do some guy selling untaxed cigarettes?
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Somehow I'm doubting Charlie Rangel would be tackled by 5 Capital police and administered a choke hold until he's handcuffed. Just guess tho.... :mrgreen:
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Ockham said:
Somehow I'm doubting Charlie Rangel would be tackled by 5 Capital police and administered a choke hold until he's handcuffed. Just guess tho.... :mrgreen:
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Can't a girl dream anyway??
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Al sharpton owes 4 million in back taxes, Eric Garner much less. Think about that.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
He was long gone by the time we moved there. his house sold for 3 million only to be torn down I believe.
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It was torn down. I know the house well. My husband grew up in Mahwah and we used to go see it when he lived there. The best part was the little tree houses all around the property where the SS agents hung out.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
Al sharpton owes 4 million in back taxes, Eric Garner much less. Think about that.
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Who do you think the tax evading activist was in my post?

I'd love to see him in a non-lethal chokehold, just to quiet him for a few hours.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Misterveritis said:
Right. I would assume that grand juries begin at the level of felonies. So if the Prosecutor believes he may charge someone with a felony he presents the evidence he has to a Grand Jury. Do you agree?

Few is a relative term. We have tens of thousands of laws now whose violation is a felony. We did not use to. I would not be surprised if it is a felony these days fill in a low spot in your yard because a mud puddle forms there when it rains.
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I don't quite agree. According to what I found, grand juries are a requirement before Federal prosecution. States have their own set of rules up to and including not requiring a grand jury at all. (Hence Zimmerman's trial, as an example.)

States are free to formulate their own pretrial requirements, and they vary greatly in the number of grand jurors they seat, the limits they place on the deliberations of those jurors, and whether a grand jury is used at all. Federal courts use a grand jury that consists of 23 citizens but can operate with a quorum of 16. Twelve jurors' votes are required for an indictment. States use a grand jury consisting of as few as five but no more than 23 members. Grand juries are chosen from lists of qualified state residents of legal age, who have not been convicted of a crime, and who are not biased against the subject of the investigation.
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Grand jury legal definition of Grand jury
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

tres borrachos said:
It was torn down. I know the house well. My husband grew up in Mahwah and we used to go see it when he lived there. The best part was the little tree houses all around the property where the SS agents hung out.
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I heard he gave out pens at halloween with his face on it.


What section of Mahwah?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
I heard he gave out pens at halloween with his face on it.


What section of Mahwah?
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Near Van Gelders Pond (where he learned to skate - he used to play hockey for a living) right off Wyckoff Avenue. His family is long gone from there. I'm also from NJ but slightly south, down 287, in Morristown.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

tres borrachos said:
Near Van Gelders Pond (where he learned to skate - he used to play hockey for a living) right off Wyckoff Avenue. His family is long gone from there. I'm also from NJ but slightly south, down 287, in Morristown.
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Fardale.

I knew people who lived on the dead end of Chapel.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
Fardale.

I knew people who lived on the dead end of Chapel.
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My in-laws sold their house in 1997 for about $550,000. Now they're selling there for almost $900,000.Makes me wish they'd hung on to it for a few more years.

I miss some things about Jersey, but not the prices (and the taxes).
 
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