• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I don't know how the grand jury system works. And don't have the ambition to look into it. But I can absolutely assure you that not every prosecution requires a grand jury. As a matter of fact, if you remember Zimmerman, the DA was heartily criticized because she elected NOT to convene a grand jury.

Okay, here ya' go:



IOW, not every prosecution (in fact, few of them) require a grand jury.

Right. I would assume that grand juries begin at the level of felonies. So if the Prosecutor believes he may charge someone with a felony he presents the evidence he has to a Grand Jury. Do you agree?

Few is a relative term. We have tens of thousands of laws now whose violation is a felony. We did not use to. I would not be surprised if it is a felony these days fill in a low spot in your yard because a mud puddle forms there when it rains.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Just as it's not a Black/White thing, nor is it a Liberal versus Conservative thing. It's a man's inhumanity to man thing.
Think a little deeper. Why was he there? What was he doing and what made it profitable? Why did others object? Why did the city make a repeat offense a felony? He was a repeat offender, at least from the allegations online. Why would it be a felony to sell cigarettes without a tax stamp? Who made those laws? Who hired so many police to enforce their laws?

Liberalism ran amok. It always causes misery for most. And death to a few. If you want to solve this problem create a single sales tax rate for everything. No exceptions.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

I hadn't really followed this case, but from what I've heard in the last day or so it seems to me that IF the actions of the police in this case did NOT equal a crime, then the law needs changed so it is.

Unless I totally misunderstood.

No, you didn't misunderstand.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Because cigarette laws did not cause the police officers to use excessive force, in violation of their own police department's code of conduct.
You are making unfounded allegations. In fact I would describe what you are doing as defaming the officers. A grand jury heard the testimony and brought no charges. So you are committing a serious civil offense.

"This case cries out for an anti-tax rebellion. Ultimately it is liberalism that is at the root of this man's death."

Right. Anything to avoid any racial aspect of the case, or recognition of police brutality.
Other than for the racists among us race was not an issue. There was no police brutality. Give the Grand Jury findings I believe a case could be made against you for slander.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Go suck an egg. Is there only one court in all of New York?

That's kind of the point. The pool of people to choose from in NYC vastly exceeds the number of courts. Say there are 500 courtrooms in NYC. At most, they'd need 12,500 eligible voters to fill those seats. At a minimum? 8000. In Brooklyn alone, they'd have over 1,000,000 people to fill those seats. Hardly neighbors. Say NYC has 2,500 courtrooms in operation. That would put it at 40,000 and 57,500 jurors who'd be picked out of the respective 1 million. Again, your neighbors argument doesn't hold water based on the numbers alone.

Do people from Pennsylvania get bussed in to review the prosecutor's evidence? You are the expert in New York Grand Juries. You tell me how they are selected in New York.

I just did. They're selected randomly using DMV/County lists.

Frequently Asked Questions - Jury Service | Western District of New York

Your name was randomly selected from county voter registration lists and licensed motor vehicle operator lists for the State of New York.

Stop, perpetuating a lie.

Here, where I live, it is on a county basis, but one can also be called on a town basis.

Yes, and in the great but minute city of Hunstville, Alabama, they don't even begin to touch the population of New York City's smallest borough.

And yes, it is comprised of citizens who live where you live.

Still regurgitating nonsense?
 
Last edited:
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Why? Any reason you are certain of that?

It is what good prosecutors do. Are you make an allegation of corruption or malfeasance on the part of the prosecutor?
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Ummm... so resisting the government's lawful actions is lawful? Lmao. Eh alright.

You will have to explain.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

NYC taxes aren't bad. I'm paying more now that I live in suburban Suffolk than I did when I lived in the city. Though overall I do pay a boatload in taxes.

The policy in question was mayor Bloombergs if I recall. He's really a Republican.

Perhaps an establishment Republican. Some call them Progressive Republicans. They are a dangerous to our liberties as any democrat.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Seriously? A New York cop chokes a low-level bad-behaviour perp and people should protest liberalism?

Ahemcoughtunnelvisioncough
Why do you suffer from such a limited view?

I have already posted why once. I might post it again if necessary.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

I've seen the video. Garner was unarmed and non-violent. One of the officers used a choke hold. Another pushed his head into the ground, and sat on his back, compressing his chest.

The autopsy indicated that both of these were instrumental in causing Garner's cardiac arrest.

I also know that grand juries almost never decline to indict. It's not a system where evidence is challenged; it's almost always a mere formality. It certainly doesn't match the level of scrutiny of a full file.

But hey, why talk about police brutality and injustices of the courts, when we can bitch about taxes? :roll:

It’s Incredibly Rare For A Grand Jury To Do What Ferguson’s Just Did | FiveThirtyEight

You have not seen the evidence. A grand jury did. Are you accusing the prosecutor of corruption? Or malfeasance?

Or maybe you just don't feel like thinking.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

If you argue with the police, they will send five men to take you down, put you in a chokehold, and take you by force?

If you don't comply with their orders, they will use force. Whether or not they should have used five men and choked you is debatable.

here in the USA?

Not just in a dictatorship?

Holy crap. We already have a police state.

Also debatable.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

This video in particular shows enough to justify an indictment.



Officer Pantaleo hasn't had a trial.



It's a rubber stamp... unless a cop is involved. As a "check against tyranny," it's almost completely ineffectual.



Yeah, they can do that anyway. Hence, the infamous saying that any prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.

Feelings. Not reason. Simply feelings. I suggest you find yourself a crying towel and go for it.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Stand down, laddybuck. Conservative resistance to tyranny will always be implied, low-key, case-by-case, lest powers they relish be removed from government. If you want a full-out armed rebellion against tyranny, you need liberals.

You will be involved but I can count on you being on the wrong side.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I see tyranny in this video but it wasn't being committed by Eric Garner.

Where do you see tyranny in the video? You are irrational. It is a shame. It happens.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Posting falsehoods is now your specialty, isn't it? Grand jurors aren't your neighbors. There will not be ONE grand juror that lived in Gardener's neighborhood. Gardener is poor. Being a grand juror us generally a treat given to older political supporters and social types for the experience of having done so.

Yeah. They are your neighbors. They usually are citizens called from property tax records and voter registration rolls from the court district where the potential crime took place. In my case it is the entire county. In a big city with more than one court district you might have many grand juries going on at the same time.

Don't be cute or snotty. You are not that good at it.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

This is one of the ugliest statements I have seen here. I think this deserves flagging.

Your entire posting history on this thread deserves flagging.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I'm optimistic, but I'm going to play devils advocate and assume that the officer refuses to articulate the reasonable suspicion for detailing said suspect. What do you think should be done in response?

Keep the camera rolling. Given that he has no reason to detain you politely tell him that you are leaving now. Bid him Adieu.

:)
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

This is not about better... it's about right and wrong. Anyone with two eyes sees that a lack of indictment in Garners case was injustice. It had nothing to do with racists, it has nothing to do with going along with anyone... it's simple right and wrong. No indictment in Garners case was wrong.

It is about right and wrong. You have chosen wrong.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

If my views are irrelevant so are yours.

Except for the one tiny point that I accept the Grand Jury's decision and you do not.

You have chosen tyranny over justice. I wonder why. It is very odd.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Do you believe cops should be able to decide which laws they enforce, and which ones they don't?

Why not. That is what the President does. And his hatchet carrier, the Attorney General. Lawlessness from the top breeds lawlessness at every level.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Yeah. They are your neighbors. They usually are citizens called from property tax records and voter registration rolls from the court district where the potential crime took place. In my case it is the entire county. In a big city with more than one court district you might have many grand juries going on at the same time.

Don't be cute or snotty. You are not that good at it.

Staten Island is covered by the Eastern District of New York. All of it. Staten Island population? 470,000. Population over ~21? 70%. That means.... Out of that 470,000 there were ... +300K eligible people for that GJ. That alone makes your neighbors argument a stretch.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Been there done that. The level of evidence needed for a GJ is very low and the video by itself is enough to indict.
And yet the grand jury did not find sufficient evidence to charge anyone with a crime. So are you now making allegations against the district attorney, the prosecutor or the members of the grand jury? Other than your feelings what is your evidence?

Now your guessing my motives? :lamo Don't insult me.
This has nothing to do with revenge it has to do with right and wrong. Your mama didn't teach you that when you were little? Mine did.
She did poorly by you then. Did she actually teach you that citizen control of the justice system is wrong if you disagree with a particular finding? Did she teach you to mistrust your neighbors when they are charged with reviewing evidence you have not seen and yet you disagree with them? Did she teach you to stamp your feet and demand mob rule if you disagree with a finding? Or are you hiding behind her skirt?

And you talk about tyranny - that's ironic. The police and government who control the police are much more likely to be tyrannical than the citizen under them.

Tossing out a grand jury's decision and running with the mob is what leads to tyranny. When you believe your emotions should trump evidence and diminish the power of the grand jury to act as a brake on government prosecutions whose hands do you believe you are playing into? It is time for you to grow up and put away childish things.

I have to start wondering you and other who share your views disbelieve your own eyes. I don't want the cop locked up for murder - it was an obvious accident. I want a jury to review it and give their judgement. Not much to ask in the Garner case.
A grand jury reviewed the evidence. You reject their decision. You are becoming a tyrant. I wish you would see it and stop.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I wouldn't have.
Write him a ticket if he's doing something he shouldn't. Selling cigarettes isn't an arrestable offense.

Is committing a felony an arrestable offense, in your opinion?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

You have become a total contradiction now. GJs are no safeguard against anything. 3 no-bills in 5 years out of 250,000 GJ presentations. And you claim GJs are a safeguard against unjustly being taken to trial.

I've noticed how often you debate yourself - give little mini lectures back and forth at yourself.

Way back the Perry Mason "examining trials" were a good thing, as were coroner's inquiries. Both were eliminated as they gave citizens a right to some say and defense prior to being put on trial was to costly and bothersome to the government. It is FAR easier to negotiate a plea bargain telling poor people who can't post to plea out or stay in jail a year waiting for trial.

The ENTIRE criminal justice system is built around forcing people to plea out. Rich people can fight. No one else really can.

You are so full of yourself. Of course grand juries are a brake on tyranny at the local level. But don't let me stand in the way of your make believe world.
 
Back
Top Bottom