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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

beefheart said:
Yes....no cross examination, which is why it is a joke. Indict and have a trial, that way all the information comes out in a real trial.....what is everyone afraid of? Due process?
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Please, please, educate yourself before you spout off like this. The grand jury is part of due process. And grand jurors can question witnesses, trial jurors cannot.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

clownboy said:
You're wrong. We're not talking about juvie records here. The guy was an adult criminal. And pattern of of crimes, repeat offences, are almost always germane.
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No, they aren't. Cops use them as an excuse to justify their actions. Each situation is new, past doesn't predict the future.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
Another absurd message.

IF Gardener had been a 360 pound world champion MMA fighter or WWF champion... then yes, at least for a little while - he could have protected himself from being assaulted and killed by multiple police officers assaulting him to prevent him having an opportunity to resist arrest - for which they tactically decided NOT to inform him he was arrested and instead to surprise take him down before he could resist arrest if told he was under arrest.

New police procedure - pre-emptively beat a person down and into submissive prior to effecting or notifying of an arrest to prevent possible resistance arrest. Beat the person down violently into physical submission first - then inform the person he is under arrest. However, if the person resists being beaten, then it is after-the-fact-resisting arrest, which he is informed of being arrested after his resistance to it.



It seems there is a contest by police groupies of who can post the most absurd reasoning. :roll:
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it is called subdual

you subdue a subject so they cant hurt you, or themselves

it is trained in every police academy across the country

ONLY AN IDIOT would claim to not understand this

why do police use tasers instead of guns....to subdue NOT kill

same here....only because of the perp's physical attributes, and his refusal to submit to authority, a tragedy occurred

you can keep beating this dead horse all you like, but that is exactly what happened

and until if and when they release the GJ testimony, that is all you will ever know
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

MaggieD said:
There's so much we don't know -- because we just don't understand the process. For instance, does the medical examiner interpret the findings of an autopsy? Or does the person doing the autopsy determine cause of death. Was there any physical evidence on his body that a chokehold had been applied? (He was certainly still breathing...and still TALKING...after the chokehold was released. That's a very important POINT, in my opinion.

In coroner-speak, does homicide mean a CRIME has been committed, or does it simply mean that death was caused by actions of others? A coroner or medical examiner should certainly not be able to arbitrarily decide a crime was committed. I have a real problem with it being designated a homicide. Why wouldn't it be "accidental death"?
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Accidental Death Law & Legal Definition

(1) An accidental injury visible on the surface of the body or disclosed by an autopsy, sustained solely by external, violent, and accidental means.

(2) A disease or infection resulting directly from an accidental injury and beginning within 30 days after the date of the injury.

(3) An accidental drowning.
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It seems that accidental death is used when a person causes an accident resulting in their own death. As the cop's actions directly led to Eric Garner's death, it would fall under homicide. Watching VanceMack avoid that fact is just laughable. :lol:
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

apdst said:
How would you have handled it? Be specific.

What different laws?
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Inwould have skipped the petty loosy selling and focused on mire serious crime.

Think about it, if he was smoking a joint, he'd be alive today.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
Grand jurors are not selected by the public and the only witnesses they can question are ones the DA puts in front of them.

But tell us, how do you say grand jurors are selected? They are NOT selected like jurors for jury trials. But tell us how you think they are selected.
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Why don't you look it up, you obviously don't understand how any of this works. And btw I never said the public selected grand jurors, I said they were selected FROM the public.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

MaggieD said:
There's so much we don't know -- because we just don't understand the process. For instance, does the medical examiner interpret the findings of an autopsy? Or does the person doing the autopsy determine cause of death. Was there any physical evidence on his body that a chokehold had been applied? (He was certainly still breathing...and still TALKING...after the chokehold was released. That's a very important POINT, in my opinion.

In coroner-speak, does homicide mean a CRIME has been committed, or does it simply mean that death was caused by actions of others? A coroner or medical examiner should certainly not be able to arbitrarily decide a crime was committed. I have a real problem with it being designated a homicide. Why wouldn't it be "accidental death"?
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Answers:

The medical examiner/coroner makes a determination of the cause of death. This, of course, can be challenged in court.

"Homicide" does NOT mean a crime was committed. Rather, it means the person was killed by another person or persons. Homicide of itself is not criminal. Criminal homicide is criminal. Think of the phrase "justifiable homicide."

It wasn't accidental death because that death was brought on by the actions of another person or people. For it to be declared "accident" would mean you are claiming that if the assault against Gardener had not happened he would have died at that same time anyway.

"Assault" is also accurate. Gardener WAS in fact assaulted by the police. The legal question is was it a legal assault. That's always why the only legal issues should NOT have been just whether Gardener was criminally killed - but also whether it was legal for the police to assault him. The DA took that off the table - as does nearly everyone on this thread.
Rather, they only want to debate absolute extremes. Murder or not murder - not the overall legalities of it.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Hatuey said:


If anyone is interested in seeing how another cop handled a similar situation. A guy is essentially waving his hands in front of an officer, getting people to surround him, and lecturing a cop on the legality of his actions, while carrying a god damn boa on his neck. What does the cop do? Remain calm, and address the situation with seriousness. If we were to follow the what if arguments of some of the police brutality apologists, he should have been shot to death and his snake should have been used to keep his body from falling from the stretcher. :lol:
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Wonder how long before the local thugs in blue catch the snake guy or red shirt guy alone and plant a gun or drugs on them.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

ReverendHellh0und said:
You need to show me where i am wrong otherwise this is a sinple deflection.

I know more about the law than you think.


In fact you were supposed to cite penal code for me, yet you havent and i have.
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I live in Florida, not NY. I am not going to research NYC penal codes.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

austrianecon said:
No, they aren't. Cops use them as an excuse to justify their actions. Each situation is new, past doesn't predict the future.
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:lamo

It's not just the cops who recognize patterns of criminality, it's also our courts. In fact a whole lot of evidence is introduced to show a pattern of criminality. You see, commit a particular offence once, the judge may let you off with a warning and a significantly reduced fine. By the 32cd time you're obviously not getting the message and the fines/penalties will be enhanced.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
Inwould have skipped the petty loosy selling and focused on mire serious crime.

Think about it, if he was smoking a joint, he'd be alive today.
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Not in NYC and especially not if it was the 32cd time he was caught smoking a joint in public.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Texmex said:
Just like Ferguson however, the public can make this officer's life a living hell, if they so desire. I doubt it comes to this because I imagine the Federal government will file charges and prosecute this police officer.
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Maybe. The Federal prosecutors will have access to all the evidence and testimony in the Grand Jury hearings. If they find grounds then they will likely convene their own grand jury.

The family can also sue for damages for wrongful death but they will more likely sue the city since the officer himself likely has no money since he has no job now. The city will likely settle rather than go to court simply because it is the cheaper solution for everyone.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

CRUE CAB said:
I live in Florida, not NY. I am not going to research NYC penal codes.
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Then stay out of threads that aren't about Florida I suppose. What a ridiculous dodge.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

CRUE CAB said:
I live in Florida, not NY. I am not going to research NYC penal codes.
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I grew up in nyc and my office is in chelsea, nyc.

I have an attorney on my payroll.

You accosted me as if i dont know.

I do know. I live and work here.




I research penal code all the time. Its a great way to win debates.



You made claims but refuse to back them up. Noted.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

For all those claiming the GJ decision is proof it was legitimate...


"Having done my civic duty, now I know why, almost 25 years ago, then-Chief Judge Sol Wachtler wanted to abolish most grand juries, telling the Daily News that district attorneys could get a grand jury to "indict a ham sandwich." He wasn't wrong.

That's just the half of it. I encountered an assistant DA who read my fellow grand jurors and me instructions - but wouldn't let us read them for ourselves. I encountered a judge who finally gave me the instructions I was entitled to - and then said that I couldn't share them with the other grand jurors.
It's a Kafkaesque system where if you dare try to understand what you're doing, so that you might better exercise your civic duty, well, then you're just being a troublemaker.

But to call all this a formality is an insult to formalities. Of about 125,000 adult felony arrests in Manhattan in the last five years, grand juries have only dismissed charges three times. Ham sandwich indeed.


Also, jurors can only listen to the criminal statutes charged. Requests for written copies of these laws were refused. Why? The assistant DAs aren't expected to memorize these definitions; they all carry books with the texts. Yet it is the jurors who have to decide about indicting people. The court should require the assistant DAs to leave a copy of the definition of each crime when making a charge.

After a week I again asked Blumberg if I could get the nine pages of grand juror instructions. She said she was told that we could not have them. "

READ IT ALL AT LINK BELOW>>>

Wanna bet those only 3 not indicted of 125,000 who were involved police or government people?

Here's NY grand jury realities...

Aronson: The strange secrets of N.Y.'s arcane grand jury system - NY Daily News
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

shrubnose said:
I agree and I'm speculating that no one in New York feels any safer because Mr. Garner is dead.
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Well, maybe some kid who couldn't buy his cig that day decided to quit like his mom has been bugging him about. The kid grows up to become the best president this nation has ever had rather than die of lung cancer.

It's one of those unknowable things.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Lets look at this another way you have haymarket, me, hautey, limbaugh and hannity all in agreement this should never have gotten this far.

To get to this point something has gone terribly wrong.




Also deblasio orders police to crack down on illegal ciggys, throws police under bus when they do.


Nyc and ny created the black market that led to sending officers who end up killin someone over loosies.


Wtf
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
Nyc is no longer persuing small amounts of mj.
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Still can't smoke a joint outside, they've made it clear they'll still arrest for that. The new policy is about possession, not use.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

clownboy said:
Please, please, educate yourself before you spout off like this. The grand jury is part of due process. And grand jurors can question witnesses, trial jurors cannot.
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I know...it is broken. Why not a trial? Why not cross examination? Why not a real actual trial? If the cops are innocent, the trial will find that, won't it?

If a non policeman grabbed him and choke holded him and killed him, there would be a regular trial...but cops...well, that is different....


Keep licking those boots.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

vesper said:
As I stated earlier, it is relevant as it shows the reason why there is such a presence of law enforcement in the area. They are not there to harass black people as some like Holder, Obama, and Sharpton claim. They are there because of the volume of criminal activity taking place in that neighborhood.
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Hatuey said:
I didn't take anything out of context. You stated Obama had claimed something, and I asked you to substantiate it. You substantiated it with your interpretation of the super secret race baiter extremist language called stating fact. That's hardly substantiating your post. That you have trouble realizing this is your problem. Not mine. As for the rest:

tl/dr.
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Intellectual dishonesty is a failure to apply standards of rational evaluation that one is aware of, usually in a self-serving fashion. If one judges others more critically than oneself, that is intellectually dishonest. If one deflects criticism of a friend or ally simply because they are a friend or ally, that is intellectually dishonest as is political alliances etc..

You just proved yourself to be such simply because you were not willing to reply to my post in its entirety but only quoted a snippet. Have a nice day.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
Lets look at this another way you have haymarket, me, hautey, limbaugh and hannity all in agreement this should never have gotten this far.

To get to this point something has gone terribly wrong.




Also deblasio orders police to crack down on illegal ciggys, throws police under bus when they do.


Nyc and ny created the black market that led to sending officers who end up killin someone over loosies.


Wtf
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You know it's not just the tax. The illegal sellers sell to kids. I'm a smoker who wants to be left alone to smoke and I still think there's a special hell reserved for those who sell drugs, alcohol and smokes to kids.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

joko104 said:
Guess what, the grand jury was picked by the same authority that picked the police that is the same authority and institution of the prosecutor and the grand jury only heard what the prosecutor wanted the same-team grand jury to hear about the same-team police officers.

Who represented Gardener to the grand jury? NO ONE.
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Good grief. The grand jury determines whether or not there is enough evidence to indict someone for a crime. If there is not enough evidence it doesn't matter who the victim is.

In fact, the public has MORE access to information than the grand jury did, because there was no prosecutor's filter and censorship.
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Haha wut.

What information do you have access to that the Grand Jury doesn't?

But don't let reality get in your way of worship of police and government and your hatred of citizen's rights.
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You are living in an amazingly ignorant bubble. You don't understand the function of a grand jury or have any possible way of knowing what information was presented to the Grand Jury.. yet still you claim to know more than the Grand Jury and what the outcome should have been. :roll:
 
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