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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Trayvon had nothing to do with police.

It had to do with court decisions, which was spun as a racial injustice, just like the other two.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Note elbow position. if the crook of that elbow is sticking out like that the trachea is not being compressed. officer choke hold doesn't have position, and isn't actually choking ****.

Well, it is probalby choking him...it's just not likely doing it exceptionally well, and in a way that would actually cause consiousness issues for most healthy people.

Rather than looking at the crook of the elbow, look at the forearm across the throat. Now, barring the caveat I put in the other post (that I can't fully tell where the individuals throat is so I'm unsure how straight he has the forearm against it), that absolutely can be an windpipe choke.

Since everyone is liking pictures, I'll grab a random picture of a very typical Judo choke:

judo_choke2n.gif


Painful, especially if applied quickly, but not something that typically is going to cause incapacitation anywhere near as quickly as sliding down it into an actual traditional rear naked/sleeper style hold. But still technically a "choke". And similar to the hold the officer has on him.

Though again, as I said in my previous post...i've not seen the video, and just going off that picture, its impossible for me to say if that was his intent or if he was going for a blood choke and for whatever reason simply failed at it.

Nope, I'd never tap on that hold. where his elbow creases is, his trach has space. also without hooks in, he's got no leverage.

If you'd not be tapping if someone did that hold right, you've got better pain tolerance than me :) Then again, I've always disliked that throat constricting feeling significantly more than the pressure of a carotid.

As to the picture...while he's doesn't have very good leverage to do anything to someone with a modicrum of ground fighting knowledge, he's got more than enough to potentially still make that choke decently effective for causing pain and making difficulty breathing to someone whose out of shape, has physical issues impairing breathing, and doesn't seem to have much knowledge of ground fighting. His shoulder and arm can be used to apply the leverage needed to keep his victims from moving back away from the choke. He's got the space there to use his legs and weight to provide a suitable base to keep the choke on.

While there's no doubt in my mind someone like yourself, or even potentially someone like CMP, would likely not have much issue dealing with such a hold, this was a far different situation.

Now all that said...

I need to go find a food thread to post in to fully appreciate the two biggest topics of conversation I most missed having you around for :)
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ANd see...you would be wrong.

"OCME spokeswoman Julie Bolcer said Friday that Garner, a 43-year-old father of six, died from "compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police."

His weight -- Garner weighed more than 300 pounds -- and pre-existing medical conditions -- acute and chronic bronchial asthma and hypertensive cardiovascular disease -- also contributed to Garner's death, the OCME's report states."

which means he didnt die of 'homicide'. Once the full findings of the autopsy are released we will see the actual cause of death. As they list "acute and chronic bronchial asthma and hypertensive cardiovascular disease" its probable that it will show he had a coronary attack, not he died because 'the police homicided him'. An 8 second choke hold most probably did NOT kill him.

Pretty sure if the police had not intervened that he would likely be alive today.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I'm not suggesting that at all. By "form of arrest", I mean that the police department itself banned its officers from use of that choke hold. A jury in a court could convict the officer of negligence leading to death if they believe that the officer ignored police regulations in the process of the arrest. A police officer can be negligent in the conduct of a legal act - that's my point.

Do you know the difference between a headlock (pictured below) and a choke hold?

image.jpg

image.jpg

image.jpg
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

My problem is the cops not responding to him after he was subdued. At least one of them should have assessed whether he was really having trouble breathing or not. And if they didn't give him CPR, I'd want to know why. I didn't see all the video so not sure when he was put on stretcher.

Don't have much issue with the takedown and don't know if they had cause to arrest him or not, people, both cops and civilians, lie. The place to argue whether your arrest is legit or not is in court, not while being arrested. Refusing to allow the cops to arrest you is resisting arrest.

Now I don't know what evidence the grand jury had, maybe it did say more or maybe it was based on the fact that only one officer was charged when all would have some culpability depending on the answers to the concerns I had. I don't think this was racism. Sure there are racist cops out there, but I haven't seen any evidence this was done due to his race. It still could be excessive without it involving race. And all the cops involved should go up for review. The one probably lose his badge for disobeying procedure and using a banned hold. The others though should have to justify why they didn't help him, at least one of them assessing him and or giving him help after it was obvious his pleas about not being able to breathe were legit.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

It had to do with court decisions, which was spun as a racial injustice, just like the other two.

Which isn't what you said up there.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

An a lot of bad dietary choices.

Oh, but I am sure that you raised phony outrage about Michelle Obama and school lunches...and taxes on soda.

Because you really care about people's health don't you?

How would you feel if an inmate in a jail, awaiting trial who was diabetic and wasn't given insulin died because of that?

Deborah Braillard Lawsuit: Family Of Deceased Inmate Wins $3.25 Million From Sheriff Joe Arpaio's Department
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Which isn't what you said up there.

The whole argument is based on racist cops being supported by an equally racist judicial system. That's the point.

Which is utter BS. (As Charles Barkley thankfully said publicly.)
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Zero tolerance causes police to kill unarmed Americans?

Yes, I think it plays a role in that. It's obviously, not the only variable, but it is a variable.
Mathematically it would be like r = x1 + x2 + x3 + x4 + ... + xn
r being the end result of this police culture, well, this 0 tolerance prevalence in the USA is one of those x's.

And 0 tolerance policies are the trademark of leftist, so-called "progressive" mindset and people who subscribe to it. And they've pushed this cultural norm in areas of life where it shouldn't be the cultural norm and it has now made its way into the police force, well, at least some of it. It's already the norm in many schools and especially, "academia" which is dominated by morons, I mean, progressive professors. The generation you raise is the people you have and the people in a country define that country.

No, it's more of a police state thing.

As I said above, I think it has to do with the 0-tolerance culture norm that seems to be prevalent in america and gradually, in the rest of the world too. see comment 908 for more.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Well, it is probalby choking him...it's just not likely doing it exceptionally well, and in a way that would actually cause consiousness issues for most healthy people.


Maybe uncomfrotable. thats about it.


Rather than looking at the crook of the elbow, look at the forearm across the throat. Now, barring the caveat I put in the other post (that I can't fully tell where the individuals throat is so I'm unsure how straight he has the forearm against it), that absolutely can be an windpipe choke.


arm across throat his only leverage is his bicep, in that position which he has none, so it's not chocking his windpipe, evidenced by his screams ironically of "i can't breath"


Since everyone is liking pictures, I'll grab a random picture of a very typical Judo choke:

judo_choke2n.gif


Painful, especially if applied quickly, but not something that typically is going to cause incapacitation anywhere near as quickly as sliding down it into an actual traditional rear naked/sleeper style hold. But still technically a "choke". And similar to the hold the officer has on him.

Though again, as I said in my previous post...i've not seen the video, and just going off that picture, its impossible for me to say if that was his intent or if he was going for a blood choke and for whatever reason simply failed at it.

similar choke except he had an underhook. and he's not paralell to the trachea, he's in a "V" which negates its effects. the choke he's attempting is a blood flow choke thats so bad it's closer to a wind choke.


If you'd not be tapping if someone did that hold right, you've got better pain tolerance than me :) Then again, I've always disliked that throat constricting feeling significantly more than the pressure of a carotid.


One always taps for correctly applied chokes, or he can sleep on his mistake.

As to the picture...while he's doesn't have very good leverage to do anything to someone with a modicrum of ground fighting knowledge, he's got more than enough to potentially still make that choke decently effective for causing pain and making difficulty breathing to someone whose out of shape, has physical issues impairing breathing, and doesn't seem to have much knowledge of ground fighting. His shoulder and arm can be used to apply the leverage needed to keep his victims from moving back away from the choke. He's got the space there to use his legs and weight to provide a suitable base to keep the choke on.

While there's no doubt in my mind someone like yourself, or even potentially someone like CMP, would likely not have much issue dealing with such a hold, this was a far different situation.


I'm sure it was very uncomfortable, but his complaints of breathing issues, I can be sure it was due to the pressure applied by the other police.

as for me? anyone with 6 months of ground fighting could make that no hook back lapel choke hurt the guy trying it. lol.



Now all that said...

I need to go find a food thread to post in to fully appreciate the two biggest topics of conversation I most missed having you around for :)



I have lots of new food pics, Im in the steak thread waxing bovine!
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Boo hoo, I was harassed every time I pulled out of my drive when I was young. Funny though, I didn't get choked out.

How many times were you handcuffed arrested and taken to jail?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Every single word you typed here is 100% irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not the police used unnecessary force in the attempted arrest of Garner. All the typical right-wing bitching about "race hustlers" changes nothing that was captured on that tape.
Yes it is relevant as it puts things in perspective. What was captured on the tape only tells one part. To deny that would be one with a lynch mob mentality. Lady Justice wears a blindfold that represents objectivity. The scales she holds are symbols for equality and fairness.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Do you know the difference between a headlock (pictured below) and a choke hold?

Well one...you realize those are all professional wrestlers...and while I enjoy the entertainment, not exactly the best use for examples. Indeed, The first and third pictures you posted are actually just basically inappropriately or ineffectually applied traditional chokes. Which is kind of the point of them in wrestling...they're actual chokes, done in such a way that to a casual observer looks like it should be "choking", but in reality are pretty much harmless and work well for show.

The second picture would be reasonable to call a headlock and not in any way a shoke. The carotid on either side may be mildly pressured, neither is significantly done so as his body isn't going to do it well and it looks like the crook of his elbow is where he'd need pressure on the other side. His arm also looks like it's coming up around the jawline rather than the neckline, ala the area one would go after with a amateur wrestling cross face, which is more in line with the notion of a "headlock". Which isn't really anything like what the officer had on this person.

Also, for the fun of it

Redress said:
Hey Redress! Look, it's Chris Masters and HBK randomly showing up in a thread!
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

My problem is the cops not responding to him after he was subdued. At least one of them should have assessed whether he was really having trouble breathing or not. And if they didn't give him CPR, I'd want to know why. I didn't see all the video so not sure when he was put on stretcher.

Don't have much issue with the takedown and don't know if they had cause to arrest him or not, people, both cops and civilians, lie. The place to argue whether your arrest is legit or not is in court, not while being arrested. Refusing to allow the cops to arrest you is resisting arrest.

Now I don't know what evidence the grand jury had, maybe it did say more or maybe it was based on the fact that only one officer was charged when all would have some culpability depending on the answers to the concerns I had. I don't think this was racism. Sure there are racist cops out there, but I haven't seen any evidence this was done due to his race. It still could be excessive without it involving race. And all the cops involved should go up for review. The one probably lose his badge for disobeying procedure and using a banned hold. The others though should have to justify why they didn't help him, at least one of them assessing him and or giving him help after it was obvious his pleas about not being able to breathe were legit.

Their cause of taking down Garner is dubious at best. They were not called to the scene to address Mr Garner at all! They were there to address a fight. There is no evidence relating to Mr. Garner selling anything illegally.

So, at the outset, the entire process of arresting the man was not appropriate.

Is the new standard to automatically submit to police regardless of your rights?
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Please link to where Holder, Obama or Sharpton claimed that NYC cops were on that particular street corner at that particular time to "harass black people." In fact, please link to Obama or Holder (I'll even give you Sharpton) accusing the police of "harassing black people."

Didn't Holder say he has been harassed by white police in the past?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Please cite the particular law making it illegal to sell indiviudal cigarettes.



You all have failed at showing his 31 convictions, so I won't be voluntarily holding my breath,.
I don't live in NY. So I don't know the law there.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Now this is the new thing I guess.

CNN Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

These cases - Trayvon, Ferguson, NYC - aren't about race. I know that's the agenda, but that's not what they're about. It's about confrontation between police and uncooperative citizens, and how these situations are handled.

And anyone here would be uncomfortable if a guy kept walking back and forth in front of your house and staring at you with his hands in his pockets. Of course they called the police, and of course the policeman pulled over on the call to investigate the situation. It wouldn't matter the race of the guy scoping you out in front of your house. You'd want it looked into, as would I.

Now it's going to be the new thing to set up police officers like this. The end result is nobody is going to want to join the police force anymore. Then what?

Don't worry, there's no shortage of people on an ego trip that need a job.


"These cases" might not seem about race but people of color and the poor do seem to be taking the brunt of these low crime laws passed by politicians.

When politicians raise taxes on free market items such as cigarettes so that poor people can't afford a pack it opens an underground market for selling single cigarettes. It's just supply and demand. Unfortunately, more often than not the police response to low level crimes is becoming more akin to military response than it is just giving someone a ticket or a fine.

The question is...why does anyone need to be forcefully taken down to the ground for selling a cigarette in the first place? Would this low level crime have even happened if NY hadn't put a $5 tax on a pack of cigarettes that ultimately ended up taking Eric Gardner's life?


These cases aren't about race.....they're about the low level crime "nanny state" tax laws... that politicians are passing that usually effect and hurt poor people the most.
 
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Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Pretty sure if the police had not intervened that he would likely be alive today.

Pretty sure if the man hadnt resisted the police doing their job, he would be alive today.

So...when that guy gets pulled over for suspicion of DUI and doesnt want to comply with officers, you think the officers should just say, meh...**** it...OK...carry on?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

As his death was ruled a homicide? Which means in every definition of the word that someone's actions led to his death? I am most certainly not. Please stop this. You ****ed up and didn't realize the larger argument
He did not die of homicide. What did he die of?
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

I don't watch much tv. sorry.

Yea, that's what everyone says. Yet their limited legal knowledge seems to parallel everything from some show like NYPD Blue or something.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Moving your hands. DEATH!!!! DEATH!!!!

No moving ones hands away is resisting, attempting to prevent from being cuffed with ones hands behind their back. At this stage of an encounter.....the Officer will attempt to take control. That is what he is taught to do.
 
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