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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

CRUE CAB said:
No, I was raised by a police officer and knew to give deferment to the authority they had. Until it got out of hand. Then we did some complaining.
I was just happy they never actually caught me racing.
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Officer choke hold would have killed you, illegal street racing is a felony in some states, in FL it's more serious than selling loosies. but as the son of a cop, you would have gotten off, you would just have had to make sure you told the LEO of the family relationship.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

X Factor said:
Do you think it's a good idea to start communicating to people that, as long as they resist enough and the charge is minor enough (as determined by I'm not sure who), cops'll just give up and walk away?
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Write the guy an appearance ticket. Selling loosies is a misdemeanor.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

CMPancake said:
Watch the video, he's hardly shouting as much as he is using whatever leverage he had to gasp out "I can't breath." The shouts get louder when the cop performing the choke hold is replaced by the cop pressing Garner's face into the ground. Let's look at the "simply a hold" again.

eric-garner-chokehold.jpg


Look at where the arm is wrapped around. I'll give you a hint, it's the neck. Notice how the officer's right hand is gripping into the arm that is wrapped around Garner's neck. That's hooking and pulling, it's a basic rear choke you learn in your first weak of BJJ. For comparison here is what a rear naked choke could look like if applied in the same way the officer applied his choke hold.

BJJ_Rear_Naked_Choke_5.jpg


008.jpg


The choke is a choke, and to someone weighing 400 pounds, and asthmatic alone could spike his heart rate high enough to provoke the heart attack that killed him. (That and the four other officers compressing the back and chest as you said earlier.)

Does anyone have a link to the autopsy or a source? I know he died of a heart attack after the incident, but what did they determine the cause of death to be?
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<---- Brown belt in a gracie affiliated school.


Note elbow position. if the crook of that elbow is sticking out like that the trachea is not being compressed. officer choke hold doesn't have position, and isn't actually choking ****.

not because he didn't want to, but because he sucks.


note, last picture, dude aint beint choked yet either.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

ReverendHellh0und said:
wait, if the probable cause was due to his involvement in breaking up a fight, then why in the video is it about selling cigarettes?


That is not probable cause.
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If he broke up a fight.... for what crime would that provide probable cause?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Gaius46 said:
You're reading the law incorrectly. First offense is a misdemeanor. Any subsequent offense within five years of a previous offense is a felony. Class E is the lowest felony class in NY. Overkill in both cases imho and I'd guess in lost cases it gets knocked down to a violation but that's how it reads.
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convicted of the subdivicion meaning he imported lots and lots of packs? no?

Note, however, there is no talk of selling loosies. Technically not a crime in ny.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
convicted of the subdivicion meaning he imported lots and lots of packs? no?

Note, however, there is no talk of selling loosies. Technically not a crime in ny.
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Np. Yeah I haven't seen any reports that said he was actually selling any either. Seems the cops approached him simply because he was known to them.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Hatuey said:
If he broke up a fight.... for what crime would that provide probable cause?
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If cops roll up on a fight and there are three people involved, the cops really have no way of knowing who did what, all three can be detained and terry frisked. this I agree with as it's for everyone's safety.

This wasn't that as shown by the video, fight was already over and cops were asking about cigarettes.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Gaius46 said:
Np. Yeah I haven't seen any reports that said he was actually selling any either. Seems the cops approached him simply because he was known to them.
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did you catch my edit?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Misterveritis said:
The only offense I saw was his horrible obesity.

If you disagree with the tax laws then lets rebel together and change things. I recommend you begin by contacting your local state senator and state representative. Demand that they petition the Congress for an Article V convention of states to propose amendments.

I admire your emotions. That poor fat slob should have simply allowed arrest 32 to continue and our ineffective judicial system would have had his fat butt back out on the streets selling individual cigarettes in no time. I would not be surprised if he was one of the fifty million Americans being carried by the rest of us through the welfare system. I don't know that to be true but don't many low grade common criminals depend upon welfare for the bulk of their "living"?

When the police choose to no longer act then arming up will be your remaining remedy. In the end only you are responsible for your safety.
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You do live in Alabama don't you?
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Hatuey said:
If he broke up a fight.... for what crime would that provide probable cause?
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Claim was he broke up a fight. Who knows the truth.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

ReverendHellh0und said:
If cops roll up on a fight and there are three people involved, the cops really have no way of knowing who did what, all three can be detained and terry frisked. this I agree with as it's for everyone's safety.

This wasn't that as shown by the video, fight was already over and cops were asking about cigarettes.
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From what I understood from the case, the cop who put him in a chokehold watched him break up the fight. At least, that's from the witness testimony:

Staten Island grand jury decides not to indict police officer in Eric Garner's death, sources say | SILive.com

One Staten Island resident who offered his testimony told the jury he saw Pantaleo in Tompkinsville Park, directly across from where Garner died, right before the incident.

The man claims he and Pantaleo saw Garner break up a fight between two men, and said he thought Pantaleo was going to approach the two men before he saw him move in on Garner.
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Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
I never said this.


Police need to observe a crime. (this did not happen here)

Then they need to address it appropriately. (give him a ticket and take the cigarettes away).



if they don't see him committing a crime, they shouldn't subdue him in order to look for contraban. they had no probable cause.
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Fair enough. There's no bigger cop supporter here than me, but I'm not going to go to the mat defending the cops' actions here. I also do think it's ridiculous how many little minor things are criminal offenses.

Kobie said:
Write the guy an appearance ticket. Selling loosies is a misdemeanor.
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You don't think arrests should permissible in any misdemeanor cases? How about assault? Theft? DWI?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

X Factor said:
You don't think arrests should permissible in any misdemeanor cases? How about assault? Theft? DWI?
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Are you honestly equating selling loose cigarettes with assault, theft or DWI?

For a minor, victimless misdemeanor like this, it seems to me that an appearance ticket would suffice, rather than, you know, killing the guy on the sidewalk.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
Officer choke hold would have killed you, illegal street racing is a felony in some states, in FL it's more serious than selling loosies. but as the son of a cop, you would have gotten off, you would just have had to make sure you told the LEO of the family relationship.
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No you see, my father was a DC cop. Retired. We lived in a Podunk beach town. Yep, street racing is illegal. Not a felony back then.
Dad would have never stepped in if I was caught street racing. He would have turned me in. But pulling over every day otherwise is harassment. But I was smart enough not to let it get physical with officers.
NY dude was clearly not that smart.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

CanadaJohn said:
Personally, I'm troubled by this one far more so than the Ferguson decision. In the Ferguson incident, Michael Brown absolutely contributed to and caused his own demise. In this case, in NYC, we're talking about what is virtually a by-law infraction - selling cigarettes loosely, without tax, and local variety stores and businesses pressure police to stop it. But nobody, in my view, should die because they broke a by-law. Now, this man clearly was resisting arrest - he was surrounded by police and he kept pulling his hands back when the police tried to handcuff him. As with Michael Brown, this man is another "gentle giant". What is it about big black men that they resist arrest to the death?

This is a case, I believe, that should have gone to trial so that the entire NYC community could see and review the evidence and a jury could pass judgement on whether or not manslaughter was an appropriate charge. The community, in this case, should determine whether or not a banned choke hold being used in order to secure an arrest is reasonable force. For me, I don't see why the police didn't simply issue the man a summons to appear in court on the by-law charge.

This one bothers me a lot.

Edit: It seems that the man in this case had 31 prior arrests for similar minor offenses and apparently "knew the drill" - what possessed him to resist this one to the death is puzzling.
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You say it better than I probably would have.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

ReverendHellh0und said:
wait, if the probable cause was due to his involvement in breaking up a fight, then why in the video is it about selling cigarettes?


That is not probable cause.
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Claim of breaking up a fight. His previous reputation had everything to do with how officers approached him. That is on him.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Hatuey said:
From what I understood from the case, the cop who put him in a chokehold watched him break up the fight. At least, that's from the witness testimony:

Staten Island grand jury decides not to indict police officer in Eric Garner's death, sources say | SILive.com
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Really? I didn't know that. That can be argued for detainment or not, if it could be proven that officer choke hold clearly saw him break up the fight then there was no justification for a terry frisk.

if it's argued he didn't see that part, then they had a right to terry frisk for thier safety.


But this is all moot. You can clearly see in the video, this detainment was all about the loosies.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Kobie said:
Are you honestly equating selling loose cigarettes with assault, theft or DWI?
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No, you did, when you said he should only be given a ticket for the reason that it's only a misdemeanor. Don't tell me, you're going to go into complete Kobie denial that you ever posted any such thing despite the fact that it's right ****ing there.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
loosies are technically not a crime. there was no present evidence he was even selling loosies, he, the citizen had broken up an actual crime, a fight, but they chose him over the combatants.

I'd argue they weren't "doing thier jobs".




What was his other choice? file a lawsuit, a complaint? 1. cant afford. 2. you saw how they treat him, what would complaining do?





loosies techically isn't a crime, selling bootleg packs of cigarettes after the 2nd time is a finable offense, a misdemeanor, not something to be arrested and hauled of to jail for.

he at worst was selliong loosies but there is no evidence of that on this occasion.
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His breaking up a fight is irrelevant.

Him telling the Officer " You're always trying to arrest me, today it stops " is NOT irrelevant.

It was a terrible decision that put the LEOs on the defensive and let them know that they have a non-compliant and most likely a combative suspect on their hands.

Like I said, there are far more productive ways to address real harassment and resisting isn't one of them.

His selling " loosies " wasn't what cost him his life.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

CRUE CAB said:
Claim of breaking up a fight. His previous reputation had everything to do with how officers approached him. That is on him.
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They approached him looking to bust him for loosies. they had no right to detain him as they could not articulate reasonable suspicion he was acting currently outside the law.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

ReverendHellh0und said:
They approached him looking to bust him for loosies. they had no right to detain him as they could not articulate reasonable suspicion he was acting currently outside the law.
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You a NY cop? No, you are not. They had the right based on his rep and previous multiple arrests. You are trying to convince me the cops were in the wrong.
Forget it, you cant. Not in this instance.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Fenton said:
His breaking up a fight is irrelevant.

Him telling the Officer " You're always trying to arrest me, today it stops " is NOT irrelevant.
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Why? Is it illegal to show displeasure to police harassment?


It was a terrible decision that put the LEOs on the defensive and let them know that they have a non-compliant and most likely a combative suspect on their hands.

Like I said, there are far more productive ways to address real harassment and resisting isn't one of them.
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I love this, the police were the aggressors and when thier victim balks at thier aggression the police have to defend themselves.... /facepalm.


His selling " loosies " wasn't what cost him his life.
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You are right, it was over pumped "warrior" cops going overboard on someone standing up for his rights as a citizen of this country and daring to say enough is enough.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
<---- Brown belt in a gracie affiliated school.
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Then I will concede you have more personal experience in the field than I do. I'm a few months away from earning my white belt.


ReverendHellh0und said:
Note elbow position. if the crook of that elbow is sticking out like that the trachea is not being compressed. officer choke hold doesn't have position, and isn't actually choking ****.
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The trachea can still be compressed by a forearm if given enough force. Not as effectively if the elbow is properly placed but still possible none the less. With the position the officer is in and with his right hand locked in he has more than enough pressure to compress the trachea.

ReverendHellh0und said:
not because he didn't want to, but because he sucks.
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If the intent was to disable Garner there were other options than going for his neck. It was sloppy but it is apparent to me that Garner was being choked by the officer.


ReverendHellh0und said:
note, last picture, dude aint beint choked yet either.
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Upon further review, I think you might be right. However it also looks like the grey shirt is pulling out of the hold? I could be wrong and it is a bad picture to use as an example.
 
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