• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I don't think he realizes that pointing to the 31 grievious offences of - wait for it - .... selling bootleg smokes - doesn't make Erick Gardner the evil criminal they want him to be. For all intents and purposes he was a guy in NYC trying to make some money in the same way tens of thousands of NYers do. He didn't deserve to be attacked like a violent thug for it. But that is the MO these days and to some extent they have an interest in keeping it that way. Person is killed by police? Every supposed crime they've ever committed comes out of the woodwork to paint them as criminal.

As an example, in Orange County California a young man (Kelly Thomas) with mental illness was beaten viciously by police and died a few days later from his injuries. When that incident came to light, some of the same people justifying this - went to that thread and started talking about how he'd assaulted someone years earlier, how he was a danger to society. Never you mind that one of the cops who beat Kelly could be heard saying that he intended to inflict harm on Kelly.

That's what is happening here. A person was attacked by police officers, because he wasn't as compliant as they'd want him to be and he lost his life for it. That person lost his life because of policies which the NYPD has banned and over the supposed crime of not enjoying being bullied for bull**** crimes. Some of the small government, armchair constitutionality scholars are coming out to defend the actions and attack Garner because what? He stood up to the bull**** bullying from some of the NYPD's finest?



I sure hope I never get another beatdown by a cop, the would all crucify me for my past... lol.



you are right, dude was selling loosies. technically not even a crime in NY. for that.... well lets look.


"“I became a police officer to help people and to protect those who can’t protect themselves. It is never my intention to harm anyone and I feel very bad about the death of Mr. Garner. My family and I include him and his family in our prayers and I hope that they will accept my personal condolences for their loss,” Pantaleo said in a statement, according to NBC New York’s Steven Bognar"


Garner was protected and helped the **** out of I would say.



I think the winds of change are on the horizon, with body cameras being rolled out and citizens videoing the poiice (most often to thier dismay), that this can't keep going on.

The new videos that come out daily will eventually overwhelm the people and the police will be forced aways from it's warrior cop back to the citizen officer they should be.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I love how people who pretend to believe in liberty and freedom voice opinions aligning them with the virtues of a police state.

Still at it? Why is is that you despise justice?

What is it about civilians being in control of the government's ability to prosecute people, part of the tradition of a free people that is intended to prevent a police state, that has you confused?

I will be back on in a few weeks. Read a little about the history of grand juries so your disgust for liberty and justice keeps fresh.
 
Last edited:
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

The officers had no way of knowing that the force would be lethal.

Are you suggesting that a Police Officer didn't know cutting air off from someone wouldn't be lethal? You do understand what a chokehold is, right?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Boo hoo, I was harassed every time I pulled out of my drive when I was young. Funny though, I didn't get choked out.



lol, you must not have antagonized him enough, I got clubbed by a bunch of philly cops back in the day for the crime of "loitering" at a bus stop. (waiting for a bus).
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

If this dude had been a white guy wearing a short sleeve dress shirt and tie, sporting a young republican haircut, the right wingers here would be screaming for the cops hide.



WRONG !!

Racism is a narrative almost exclusively relied upon by left wingers.

A desperate attempt to shore up empty arguments by injecting irrelevant manufactured narratives is something Righties have to do.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Are you suggesting that a Police Officer didn't know cutting air off from someone wouldn't be lethal? You do understand what a chokehold is, right?

Point of order, if you are shouting "i cant breath" you are actually breathing, the "choke hold" that he had on Garner is supposed to cut off blood supply, it was applied wrong, and was simply a hold actually, it was the 4 other cops compressing his chest from his back with thier knees that was causing garner his breathing problems.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Did you ever asked them if they thought you were a coward? That would explain why they'd keep coming back to harass you. They probably thought you'd allow the harassment without complaining.




Police love betas.


It's the alphas they have to beat down. ;)
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Race is irrelevant in this case imo.

The choke hold is not even the issue actually


The fact that the cops end up killing a dude over selling bootleg cigarettes is what we all should be outraged over.

Do you think it's a good idea to start communicating to people that, as long as they resist enough and the charge is minor enough (as determined by I'm not sure who), cops'll just give up and walk away?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Do you think it's a good idea to start communicating to people that, as long as they resist enough and the charge is minor enough (as determined by I'm not sure who), cops'll just give up and walk away?



I think if we, the people show outrage that someone is attacked, and wrassled to the ground over suspicion of selling loosies to the point of death, that policies would be changed.


Cops never should have put themsleves in a position where they "should have walked away".
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Police officers are supposed to be professionals, not have knee jerk reactions to citizens having enough with their harassment.



They're supposed to do their jobs.

Honestly, there are ways ( safe ways ) to address harassment. Resisting is NOT a effective way to deal with harassment.


That is if its actually occurring and isn't being used as a excuse for some dude that simply doesn't feel like going to jail that day.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Then decided to resist detainment.



In order to detain someone you need to be able to articulate reasonable suspicion that that person committed a crime.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

They're supposed to do their jobs.

loosies are technically not a crime. there was no present evidence he was even selling loosies, he, the citizen had broken up an actual crime, a fight, but they chose him over the combatants.

I'd argue they weren't "doing thier jobs".


Honestly, there are ways ( safe ways ) to address harassment. Resisting is NOT a effective way to deal with harassment.

What was his other choice? file a lawsuit, a complaint? 1. cant afford. 2. you saw how they treat him, what would complaining do?


That is if its actually occurring and isn't being used as a excuse for some dude that simply doesn't feel like going to jail that day.


loosies techically isn't a crime, selling bootleg packs of cigarettes after the 2nd time is a finable offense, a misdemeanor, not something to be arrested and hauled of to jail for.

he at worst was selliong loosies but there is no evidence of that on this occasion.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I'm just posting the LEGAL Definition of Manslaughter.

If they didn't indict him for manslaughter it tells me that NYs definition is in line with the Definition I posted.

Also, a LEO struggling with a resisting non-compliant suspect does not constitute a reckless disregard of that person's life.

The vast majority of resisting suspects can and DO survive being forcibly taken into custody.


But imagine if that were the case. That Police Officers were no longer allowed to use force to take in a suspect that was non compliant.

Anyone and everyone could simply tell a Police Officer " F-u, don't touch me , I'm not going anywhere with you ".

New York apparently has separate voluntary and involuntary manslaughter statutes. The lowest threshold would be the involuntary manslaughter. My state does not define the two by statute but rather leaves it to common law cases to determine what is one or the other.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I think if we, the people show outrage that someone is attacked, and wrassled to the ground over suspicion of selling loosies to the point of death, that policies would be changed.


Cops never should have put themsleves in a position where they "should have walked away".

So there should just be a list of criminal offenses that everyone understands that no action, at all, should be taken?
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

In order to detain someone you need to be able to articulate reasonable suspicion that that person committed a crime.

Actually no you don't. You need to see them as a potential threat. All the cops knew was there was a fight. Due to previous run ins with this guy they had every reason to believe he was part of the fight.
And until there was evidence otherwise, they had a right to detain him.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

So there should just be a list of criminal offenses that everyone understands that no action, at all, should be taken?



I never said this.


Police need to observe a crime. (this did not happen here)

Then they need to address it appropriately. (give him a ticket and take the cigarettes away).



if they don't see him committing a crime, they shouldn't subdue him in order to look for contraban. they had no probable cause.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Did you ever asked them if they thought you were a coward? That would explain why they'd keep coming back to harass you. They probably thought you'd allow the harassment without complaining.

No, I was raised by a police officer and knew to give deferment to the authority they had. Until it got out of hand. Then we did some complaining.
I was just happy they never actually caught me racing.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I sure hope I never get another beatdown by a cop, the would all crucify me for my past... lol.



you are right, dude was selling loosies. technically not even a crime in NY. for that.... well lets look.


"“I became a police officer to help people and to protect those who can’t protect themselves. It is never my intention to harm anyone and I feel very bad about the death of Mr. Garner. My family and I include him and his family in our prayers and I hope that they will accept my personal condolences for their loss,” Pantaleo said in a statement, according to NBC New York’s Steven Bognar"


Garner was protected and helped the **** out of I would say.



I think the winds of change are on the horizon, with body cameras being rolled out and citizens videoing the poiice (most often to thier dismay), that this can't keep going on.

The new videos that come out daily will eventually overwhelm the people and the police will be forced aways from it's warrior cop back to the citizen officer they should be.

I think you are right but it will be a long day in hell before police unions don't fight any change. It's absolutely astounding how many videos there are on the internet of people being harassed, assaulted, and denied their basic civil rights for everything from... being drunk during Mardi Gras to.... filming police being in the wrong. A few weeks ago I watched a video of a guy at a baseball game being harassed and arrested by the police for being ... drunk and loud... at a baseball game. It's getting to the point where if you are doing something, no matter the setting and environment and a cop doesn't like it, the only way to resist is to spend money on lawyers, take them to court, and hope the justice system - which has a lousy record of convicting ****ty cops - sees things your way.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

yes, they decided to harrass a citizen they have had run-ins with before. In this case he had broken up a fight and they used it as an opportunity to harrass him again.

The video shows this, clearly
Edited vid.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Actually no you don't. You need to see them as a potential threat. All the cops knew was there was a fight. Due to previous run ins with this guy they had every reason to believe he was part of the fight.
And until there was evidence otherwise, they had a right to detain him.



wait, if the probable cause was due to his involvement in breaking up a fight, then why in the video is it about selling cigarettes?


That is not probable cause.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

He wasn't choked to death! He died because he was too fat and out of shape to pick a fight with the cops.

Holy S--t!
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Point of order, if you are shouting "i cant breath" you are actually breathing, the "choke hold" that he had on Garner is supposed to cut off blood supply, it was applied wrong, and was simply a hold actually, it was the 4 other cops compressing his chest from his back with thier knees that was causing garner his breathing problems.

Watch the video, he's hardly shouting as much as he is using whatever leverage he had to gasp out "I can't breath." The shouts get louder when the cop performing the choke hold is replaced by the cop pressing Garner's face into the ground. Let's look at the "simply a hold" again.

eric-garner-chokehold.jpg


Look at where the arm is wrapped around. I'll give you a hint, it's the neck. Notice how the officer's right hand is gripping into the arm that is wrapped around Garner's neck. That's hooking and pulling, it's a basic rear choke you learn in your first weak of BJJ. For comparison here is what a rear naked choke could look like if applied in the same way the officer applied his choke hold.

BJJ_Rear_Naked_Choke_5.jpg


008.jpg


The choke is a choke, and to someone weighing 400 pounds, and asthmatic alone could spike his heart rate high enough to provoke the heart attack that killed him. (That and the four other officers compressing the back and chest as you said earlier.)

Does anyone have a link to the autopsy or a source? I know he died of a heart attack after the incident, but what did they determine the cause of death to be?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I think you are right but it will be a long day in hell before police unions don't fight any change. It's absolutely astounding how many videos there are on the internet of people being harassed, assaulted, and denied their basic civil rights for everything from... being drunk during Mardi Gras to.... filming police being in the wrong. A few weeks ago I watched a video of a guy at a baseball game being harassed and arrested by the police for being ... drunk and loud... at a baseball game. It's getting to the point where if you are doing something, no matter the setting and environment and a cop doesn't like it, the only way to resist is to spend money on lawyers, take them to court, and hope the justice system - which has a lousy record of convicting ****ty cops - sees things your way.



Change starts slow, but it's like snowball, when you have the left, the libertarian, and many on the right all agreeing in some form or another that there is something wrong with the law enforcement industry today, something is going to give.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

You should remove that "libertarian" from your political lean.


What law did he specifically break in this incident? What was he charged with? What was he doing?

Please link to his "30 convictions".

Police claim he was selling LOOSE cigarettes. He had a single pack of untaxed cigarettes on him (remember 59% of all cigarettes in the city are bootleg).




Remember he was supposedly selling loose cigarettes. here is the law:



Criminal Sale of Untaxed Cigarettes (NY State Tax Law § 1814) | New York Criminal Defense Blawg

"(b) Any person, other than an agent licensed by the commissioner, who
possesses or transports for the purpose of sale any unstamped or
unlawfully stamped packages of cigarettes subject to tax imposed by
section four hundred seventy-one of this chapter, or who sells or offers
for sale unstamped or unlawfully stamped packages of cigarettes in
violation of the provisions of article twenty of this chapter shall be
guilty of a misdemeanor. Any person who violates the provisions of this
subdivision after having previously been convicted of a violation of
this subdivision within the preceding five years shall be guilty of a
class E felony."





Read it, in order for it to be considered a misdemeanor, it would have to be the second time and he would have to be selling packs. so, this guy was attacked, wrassled to the ground and killed because of single cigarettes and a single pack of untaxed cigarettes that is hardly even a misdemeanor.



It's no worse, ****, its less than a reckless driving ticket. if you accidentally get stopped for doing 30 over the limit, should you be dragged out of your car and killed?


I don't think so.

You're reading the law incorrectly. First offense is a misdemeanor. Any subsequent offense within five years of a previous offense is a felony. Class E is the lowest felony class in NY. Overkill in both cases imho and I'd guess in lost cases it gets knocked down to a violation but that's how it reads.
 
Back
Top Bottom