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No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

There was no self defense... The cops were the one assualting. **** you wanna be word-smiths are annoying.

Well if you want to go there.

Citizens cannot legally initiate violence. The police can. That includes chokeholds where they aren't prohibited by law or department policy.

It's not word smithing. Your statements are factually wrong.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

The disallowed chokehold I'll give you. I think the NYPD should reprimand, punish, or even fire the officer for that. If I were the police chief, I'd fire him.

I don't think a criminal indictment against him is warranted though. It's not like it was just two individuals who got in a fight, and one guy died. That would be manslaughter. This is a case of police officers trying to do their job, and something went wrong in the course of doing that. They should be given more leeway.

As for whether he was selling cigarettes - notice the one officer making the arrest was dressed as a civilian, most likely it was a sting where he went in undercover and "bought" illegal goods from this man, which resulted in the arrest.

I don't think he looked that sickly or unhealthy. To me, he just looks like a very large and powerful man, and he looks very agitated and uncooperative.

The whole thing is very sad though, I agree. Especially over such a stupid and minor crime. And it couldn't have come at a worse time for us as a country.

You don't see that he's unhealthy? He's morbidly obese and he's not young. That means....he has diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and not a great heart. He also didn't have as much breath as he should (I wonder if he's a smoker). We later found out he had asthma. He was actually pretty respectful to the officers, although he was upset they were going to arrest him and told them just to leave him alone.

That's a stretch, thinking that the man in street clothes was a sting operation. A sting operation for a guy selling cigarettes on the corner? Are you kidding me? I hope our policemen aren't wasting valuable officer resources doing silly things like that. I doubt they had a sting operation to "catch" an older black man selling ciggies. You know you get a ticket for a misdemeanor...not arrested.

Let's not forget this is over a misdemeanor. Like jaywalking. At some point an officer has to decide whether to baloon a misdemeanor into a possible homicide situation. I think that was a bad call on the officers' part. I understand he had numerous other arrest for petty offenses, so maybe he had a stack of unpaid tickets, which was the reason for the arrest. If you get stopped on a minor traffic offense, but the officer discovers that you have a bunch of prior offense tickets that you haven't paid, they'll arrest you for that. There's probably a warrant out for your arrest, as well. Maybe that was the situation.

But to push a man of that size and (to me) obviously unhealthy down belly first on the ground with pressure on top.....I could've guessed he would die. Especially when he repeatedly says "I can't breathe, I can't breathe, I can't breathe." I think THAT'S the egregious behavior. They can actually see the man is in physical distress, and they do nothing. They remain on top of him, ignoring him.

According to the news story I saw, the coroner said he died from the pressure on his neck and to his lungs from the pressure on his back, or something to that effect. I'd heard it was a heart attack, as a result of the arrest actions. I don't know which is true.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

No, that also is false. He did not die as a result of "struggling with the officers."

"Struggling" is not a cause of death.

However, you do raise a question in that should the force be relative to the person it is used against?

In your opinion, would that force have been reasonable against a 3 year old? A 90 year old? I gather in your opinion the answer is yes, that the person him/herself is irrelevant.

Obviously that man was not a "healthy person." In fact, people like you are claiming that is blatantly obvious.

Hmmmm, think about that for a moment. The offense (alleged)? Selling cigarettes on the street without a permit. The person doing it? A person obviously in very poor health. So... what should the attitude of the police then be? Clearly, your view is to disregard the poor health of the person. Even use it against him maybe?.

Have you even watched the tape? This guy does not look frail like a 3 year old or a 90 year old. He doesn't look to be in poor health. He looks like a large, aggressive man.

 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I formed my opinion without regard to the GJ decision. The GJ ONLY hears what the DA presents - who is employed by the same government the police are - and there is mega millions at stake in a potential civil suit - plus battling the police union - if a conviction. Grand jurors aren't randomly selected or elected either. They are picked by the criminal justice system, which is a closed, self protecting system. You also can't sue for even the most grotesquely illegal conduct within the criminal justice system. They are self protecting in every way - including legally.

It would be EXTREMELY rare for a GJ to indict against the wishes of the DA.

There is only one state that does not limit it to only the DA can present evidence to a grand jury - and that's Texas. However, that aspect of old Texas law isn't advertised. It's called "citizen's direct grand jury referral." Under the 1800s Texas constitution, ANYONE can ask to speak to the county grand jury. This was to prevent government corruption. Of course, Texas doesn't advertise that now.

It should be that way everywhere. ANYONE who wanted to present evidence to that grand jury should have been able to, including his family. Instead, the criminal justice system is closes and self protective. As a result, no DA or cop is every prosecuted for false affidavits, false reports, perjury etc. The only cops who will be prosecuted are those the government wants prosecuted - and that is very, very rare, particularly for the civil liabilities that then result against the governmental entity.

An indictment would mean a $50,000,000 lawsuit against the city. That is a $50 million dollar incentive not to indict.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Have you even watched the tape? This guy does not look frail like a 3 year old or a 90 year old. He doesn't look to be in poor health. He looks like a large, aggressive man.



So now you are claiming your prior messages were all just a bunch of crap?

It's called lack of intellectual integrity on your part. You go on and on that obviously his weight killed him and obviously for his weight he had bad health - then turn around and declare 100% the opposite.

All that means is you are a police worshipper and there will be no credibility in anything you post.

What is obvious to me in that video is 1.) the man did not put up any physical fight, 2.) he is not a man whose health supported tackling him to the ground with a chock hold, weigh on top of him and his head pressed to the concrete.

But, hey, I'll let you debate yourself now on your opposite claims of obviously he was in terrible health and obviously he was in good health.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Specifics...

Listening to the debate and watching the tape many times...

I have listened to this MANY times. Listening for this: "You're under arrest." "Get down on the ground." "Turn around and put your hands on the wall." "Put your hands behind your back."

It isn't there.

What I see is one officer poking him in the chest while another officer jumps up on him from behind with a chock held. He is then taken to the ground by multiple officers - while the one officer continues to chock him, another is shoving his head into concrete and another with his weight on the man's back - with totally, 100% disregard for the man saying he can't breathe.

I would have indicted, but not for manslaughter/murder. I would have been willing to indict 1.) the officer who jumped up on him from behind with a chock hold and 2.) #99 pressing his head into the concrete for 1.) aggravated assault and 2.) official oppression (or relevantly worded law).

They ganged up on and as a result killed a father of 6 for no good reason whatsoever. I would have voted to indict, but not for murder/manslaughter.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I formed my opinion without regard to the GJ decision. The GJ ONLY hears what the DA presents - who is employed by the same government the police are - and there is mega millions at stake in a potential civil suit - plus battling the police union - if a conviction. Grand jurors aren't randomly selected or elected either. They are picked by the criminal justice system, which is a closed, self protecting system. You also can't sue for even the most grotesquely illegal conduct within the criminal justice system. They are self protecting in every way - including legally.

It would be EXTREMELY rare for a GJ to indict against the wishes of the DA.

There is only one state that does not limit it to only the DA can present evidence to a grand jury - and that's Texas. However, that aspect of old Texas law isn't advertised. It's called "citizen's direct grand jury referral." Under the 1800s Texas constitution, ANYONE can ask to speak to the county grand jury. This was to prevent government corruption. Of course, Texas doesn't advertise that now.

It should be that way everywhere. ANYONE who wanted to present evidence to that grand jury should have been able to, including his family. Instead, the criminal justice system is closes and self protective. As a result, no DA or cop is every prosecuted for false affidavits, false reports, perjury etc. The only cops who will be prosecuted are those the government wants prosecuted - and that is very, very rare, particularly for the civil liabilities that then result against the governmental entity.

An indictment would mean a $50,000,000 lawsuit against the city. That is a $50 million dollar incentive not to indict.

You formed your opinion based on a four minute video. Nice. And grand juries are corrupt if they do not return the results you want. Even better.

Ride your high horse on over to the court house and volunteer for grand jury duty.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Do you realize how hypocritical you look when you agreed with Clive Bundy's bull**** argument about ancestral rights* while ignoring that he broke the law by not paying millions in taxes and then come here justifying this vicious attack by the NYPD because someone decided this guy was the worst criminal since... I don't know... any other low level bootleg cigarette peddler in the continental US?

:lol: What in HELL are you talking about?? Lordy.

As to "he was only selling bootleg cigs," what I gleaned from the video and news story was that they told him to move along . . . and he wouldn't. They were answering a complaint from shop keepers. Cop gives you a lawful order? Do it. Cop gives you an UNlawful order, do it. Fight your battle somewhere else besides the street. He was, as are so many people who die or are injured at the hands of cops, an IDIOT.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Μολὼν λαβέ;1064051768 said:
So he killed himself? Not according to the coroner's report. The cop killed him. It was ruled a homicide, not a suicide.

When a person resists arrest, his own death can be an unfortunate, but not unforeseen, consequence. The coroner ruled on the manner of death. Look up homicide. You're a bit confused.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Yes, but heart trauma also can cause this. A person with a weak heart can not pump the oxygen fast enough - thus the person can't catch their breathe. That is why if a person is having difficulty breathing goes to ER they will do an EKG - though seemingly the lungs and heart are not related to each other.

The heart of a 400 pound older guy under stress and attack likely is going to experience breathing difficulty- which is really a heart issue, the heart already aged and strained having to deal with 400 pounds. As the video shows, when the chock hold released the heart rate soars - poising danger of everything from heart attack to stroke (freeing a clot) to blood vessel in brain bursting. I suspect that under all those stresses and demands his heart threw in the towel.

I can support that 100%, Joko.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

One thing I don't recall hearing is an officer telling him to turn around and but his hands behind his back or even "you're under arrest." I just see a police officer grabbing at his arm, then another and him then taken down.

Was he ever told "you're under arrest" or "put your hands behind you back" (or in the air or "get on the ground" etc.)? Maybe I just missed that part of it. It seems before someone is "resisting arrest" they have to be told they are under arrest, not just grabbing at him. Again, I maybe missed that part of it.

I don't remember hearing that either. If I think about it tomorrow, I'll have another look-see.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

No... Never once did he swat at the police. He flailed a bit in his own personal space and tried to retract his arms after the cops grabbed his arm. I dont get why you are posting some "thug" stuff that has nothing to do with the event captured on video. Your tactic seems to be "The cops wrong doing should be ignored because it would be a shame to punish him killing someone who was a "thug". Thats a pretty crappy tactic.
It's not "thug stuff" it's reality and pertinent in discerning the truth. And yes Garner resisted arrest. What do you call a person who has been arrested 30 times? St. Francis of Assisi? A "gentle giant"? This guy was no stranger to the cops.
Garner was arguing with the cops who were there to arrest him after he got busted for selling untaxed (black market) cigarettes by an undercover cop. A crime he was currently on bail awaiting trial, along with driving without a licence, possession of drugs, and false personation. He was in no way co-operating with the police.

The one that created this video and added all the "commentary" was his friend Ramsey Orta who also has a rap sheet including a couple of felonies. According to court records he was due in court on robbery charges stemming from a May arrest and an assault charge from an arrest that occurred three days prior of him filming this video. A few weeks after the death of Garner he was spotted in a drug prone district under surveillance by undercover cops. He was in possession of a gun. Felons aren't allowed to have guns and he got arrested again. Why is this important? Neither Ramsey Orta nor Garner were/are law abiding citizens. The police had a reason for being there that day. It's not due to racial profiling or mistreating another over the color of their skin. They were there because of criminal activity.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

You pretty much would have to sell to the grand jury that the officers knew this man wasn't guilty of anything but they took him down and arrested him anyway. To me, that's a reach.




Actually, it isn't a "reach" at all.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

It's not "thug stuff" it's reality and pertinent in discerning the truth. And yes Garner resisted arrest. What do you call a person who has been arrested 30 times? St. Francis of Assisi? A "gentle giant"? This guy was no stranger to the cops.
Garner was arguing with the cops who were there to arrest him after he got busted for selling untaxed (black market) cigarettes by an undercover cop. A crime he was currently on bail awaiting trial, along with driving without a licence, possession of drugs, and false personation. He was in no way co-operating with the police.

The one that created this video and added all the "commentary" was his friend Ramsey Orta who also has a rap sheet including a couple of felonies. According to court records he was due in court on robbery charges stemming from a May arrest and an assault charge from an arrest that occurred three days prior of him filming this video. A few weeks after the death of Garner he was spotted in a drug prone district under surveillance by undercover cops. He was in possession of a gun. Felons aren't allowed to have guns and he got arrested again. Why is this important? Neither Ramsey Orta nor Garner were/are law abiding citizens. The police had a reason for being there that day. It's not due to racial profiling or mistreating another over the color of their skin. They were there because of criminal activity.



Do you have a link on this info or can I just google it?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

:lol: What in HELL are you talking about?? Lordy.

As to "he was only selling bootleg cigs," what I gleaned from the video and news story was that they told him to move along . . . and he wouldn't. They were answering a complaint from shop keepers. Cop gives you a lawful order? Do it. Cop gives you an UNlawful order, do it. Fight your battle somewhere else besides the street. He was, as are so many people who die or are injured at the hands of cops, an IDIOT.

He was an idiot, but they didn't need to choke him to death.

Maybe they should have punched him in the throat or coerced him with food or some ****..
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

30 black men are killed by PD per 1,000,000.

1 white man is killed by PD per 1,000,000.

Micheal Brown's death is not an anomaly.
You sure about those statistics? In NYC, it is just the opposite.

n NYC 2011, 515 people were victims of homicide. 62% were black 319 dead black people). Of the known murderers of those black people, 83% were black.
Conversely, there a grand total of 40 people killed by law enforcement officers in NYC. 44% of those shot were white. 33% of those shot were Hispanic. 22% (9 people) were black. 67% of the black people shot had first fired on the cops.

Like I said...you sure about those stats or are you just making **** up?

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/2011_murder_in_nyc.pdf
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downlo...ypd_annual_firearms_discharge_report_2011.pdf
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

It's not "thug stuff" it's reality and pertinent in discerning the truth. And yes Garner resisted arrest. What do you call a person who has been arrested 30 times? St. Francis of Assisi? A "gentle giant"? This guy was no stranger to the cops.
Garner was arguing with the cops who were there to arrest him after he got busted for selling untaxed (black market) cigarettes by an undercover cop. A crime he was currently on bail awaiting trial, along with driving without a licence, possession of drugs, and false personation. He was in no way co-operating with the police.

The one that created this video and added all the "commentary" was his friend Ramsey Orta who also has a rap sheet including a couple of felonies. According to court records he was due in court on robbery charges stemming from a May arrest and an assault charge from an arrest that occurred three days prior of him filming this video. A few weeks after the death of Garner he was spotted in a drug prone district under surveillance by undercover cops. He was in possession of a gun. Felons aren't allowed to have guns and he got arrested again. Why is this important? Neither Ramsey Orta nor Garner were/are law abiding citizens. The police had a reason for being there that day. It's not due to racial profiling or mistreating another over the color of their skin. They were there because of criminal activity.
Blah blah blah blah blah. All that has nothing to do with cops using lethal force against a non-violent man.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

I aint sayin...I'm just sayin. The 'chokehold' was applied at 44 seconds into the video. It was released at 52 seconds into the video after the suspect was on the ground and subdued.

A 'chokehold'...for 8 seconds...did not cause his death. Sorry...thats just fact.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Here's what bothers me so much about this. A father of 6 is dead. Why? I can't find a good reason. Can you?

So here's what bothers me of the reason why people give: "He was RESISTING arrest."

Was he? He didn't want to be arrested for certain. But I don't see him fighting anyone. He didn't like someone poking at his chest or grabbing at his arm. I don't hear any commands of turn around or get on the ground or put your hands behind you back.

I have come to completely disagree with - for petty infractions - if a person isn't INSTANTLY totally submissive they are "resisting" is given by armchair police groupies and wannabe pretend tough cops themselves - and therefore can be jumped by a bunch of police, thrown to the ground, face shoved into concrete, beaten, tasered, chocked, kicked, and clubs - often with horrific massive injuries, disfigurement, and occasionally killed.

That father of 6 had not threatened those officers in any way. He had not tried to flee. He was arguing that there was no reason to arrest him and that he is tired of police arresting him every time they see him. Yeah, I'd get tired of that too. it'd be like the police pulling you over ever time they see and taking you in for reckless driving - claiming some unnamed person phone it in. I don't see him "RESISTING" at all. Yet if he was, the level of his resistance is relevant.

If that HAD been a street gang who had jumped him for his wallet (instead of government enforcers jumping him for his wallet via fines), without a doubt those gang members would have been indicted for murder. Yet not one of those officers will even be admonished. And the police union would win a grievance if they were.

An officer jumps up on his back from behind with a chock hold and - and 2 other officers drive him down onto concrete, with another officer #99 putting his body weight on the man's head shoving it into concrete - while the surprise attack-from-behind choker is still choking him. That is definitely a WTF!!!

YouTube if FULL of those videos. Now and then we debate them on the forum - for which the "but he was RESISTING" rationale is tossed out - which then justified any gang violence of any kind against the person. We've seen a person whose only offense was a being a street person in a nice part of town beaten and crushed to death by 5 officers. That's ok, because he was "resisting." This guy is dead - justified because "he was resisting."

Totally, absolute submissiveness or any amount of violence and assault then is done to the citizen by the government?

Somehow that doesn't seem what the American Revolution and the concept of "land of the free" is about. Each instance of this has more angered me. Those officers jumped that obese old guy like a bunch of street gang punks trying to take his wallet. What he was accused of - no evidence seen of it - was so trivial, so petty, and so common it almost laughable at their radical response - their gang assault leaving 6 children without their father.

Screw this. This "resisting" justifies any level of police violence needs to stop. Seriously, "resisting" isn't justification to violently gang attack someone because the attackers are police officers.

A citizen is dead because a group of government agents jumped him like a pack of gangsters for an allegation that he had not paid a 29 cent tax on an alleged - but unseen - cigarette he sold.

This fellow citizen doesn't like that. I don't like it a lot. I bet his children and their mother like it even less.
 
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Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

I aint sayin...I'm just sayin. The 'chokehold' was applied at 44 seconds into the video. It was released at 52 seconds into the video after the suspect was on the ground and subdued.

A 'chokehold'...for 8 seconds...did not cause his death. Sorry...thats just fact.

No, that is not accurate nor was the chockhold in isolation as it was in the video presented earlier. It was part of a collective attack.

The legal question was NOT just manslaughter/murder. The DA ONLY gave those options not wanting an indictment.

The DA did not give the option of lesser charges such assault, violation of civil rights, official misconduct or official oppression.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Here's what bothers me so much about this. A father of 6 is dead. Why? I can't find a good reason. Can you?

So here's what bothers me of the reason why people give: "He was RESISTING arrest."

You need to understand that to some people it's the law and you have to do what the law says is a very powerful argument. Therefore, if the law says you did something wrong and you don't act like a submissive little sheep you're being out of line and force is called for to get you to behave. It's the circle of logic that is necessary to really believe in any of this stuff really and it's one of the reasons I no longer do.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Here's what bothers me so much about this. A father of 6 is dead. Why? I can't find a good reason. Can you?

So here's what bothers me of the reason why people give: "He was RESISTING arrest."

Was he? He didn't want to be arrested for certain. But I don't see him fighting anyone. He didn't like someone poking at his chest or grabbing at his arm. I don't hear any commands of turn around or get on the ground or put your hands behind you back.

I have come to completely disagree with - for petty infractions - if a person isn't INSTANTLY totally submissive they are "resisting" is given by armchair police groupies and wannabe pretend tough cops themselves - and therefore can be jumped by a bunch of police, thrown to the ground, face shoved into concrete, beaten, tasered, chocked, kicked, and clubs - often with horrific massive injuries, disfigurement, and occasionally killed.

That father of 6 had not threatened those officers in any way. He had not tried to flee. He was arguing that there was no reason to arrest him and that he is tired of police arresting him every time they see him. Yeah, I'd get tired of that too. I don't see him "RESISTING" at all. Yet if he was, the level of his resistance is relevant.

If that HAD been a street gang who had jumped him for his wallet (instead of government enforcers jumping him for his wallet via fines), without a doubt those gang members would have been indicted for murder. Yet not one of those officers will even be admonished. And the police union would win a grievance if they were.

YouTube if FULL of those videos. Now and then we debate them on the forum - for which the "but he was RESISTING" - which then justified any gang violence of any kind against the person. We've seen a person whose only offense was a being a street person in a nice part of town beaten and crushed to death by 5 officers. That's ok, because he was "resisting." This guy is dead - justified because "he was resisting."

Totally, absolute submissiveness or any amount of violence and assault then is done to the citizen by the government.

Somehow that doesn't seem what the American Revolution and the concept of "land of the free" is about. Each instance of this has more angered me. Those officers jumped that obese old guy like a bunch of street gang punks trying to take his wallet. What he was accused of - no evidence seen of it - was so trivial, so petty, and so common it almost laughable at their radical response - their gang assault leaving 6 children without their father.

Screw this. This "resisting" justifies any level of police violence needs to stop. Seriously, "resisting" isn't justification to violently gang attack someone because the attackers are police officers.

A citizen is dead because a group of government agents jumped him like a pack of gangsters for an allegation that he had not paid a 29 cent tax on an alleged - but unseen - cigarette he sold.

This fellow citizen doesn't like that. I don't like it a lot. I bet his children and their mother like it even less.
Dood, get real.

He is dead because he was unhealthy as hell, resisted arrest, and had a heart attack. You claim he wasnt resisting arrest. WTF? In the same paragraph you state he was arguing that there was no reason for the arrest and he didnt like people grabbing his arms. You then later say besides..I dont care if he was resisting. What the hell do you think they were doing grabbing his arms if not attempting to arrest. NOT resisting arrest would be, OK...fine, hands behind my back, book me, and I'll beat your trumped up charges. He DID resist arrest and a cop grabbed him from behind. In 8 seconds he was on the ground and the officer that took him down was no longer choking him but was on his shoulders holding him down.

Tell me what you think the cops options are in that situation. They saw what they believed to be a criminal offense...selling unlicensed cigarettes, something he was found guilty of in the past. He didnt want to be arrested. Now what? Cops just walk away saying "ok....dangit!" Next time they pull over someone under suspicion of DUI should they just not arrest the guy if the guy says I dont want to be arrested!?

I dont know if he was guilty of the crime or not. I do know that when you have a system of laws and a society that requires 'order', then when law enforcement officials make the decision to arrest you, you dont get to say 'no' and walk away.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

No, that is not accurate nor was the chockhold in isolation as it was in the video presented earlier. It was part of a collective attack.

The legal question was NOT just manslaughter/murder. The DA ONLY gave those options not wanting an indictment.

The DA did not give the option of lesser charges such assault, violation of civil rights, official misconduct or official oppression.
The same person that grabbed him from behind is the same person that moved to his shoulders and held his head down 8 seconds after he hit the ground. The entire time he was saying "I CANT BREATHE! I CANT BREATHE!" guess what he was doing. BREATHING. He was overweight, out of shape, and had asthma. He wasnt being choked out. He died because he over exerted himself resisting arrest, hence the factors acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease

I feel bad that he is dead. I feel bad for his family. I really dont know what you and people like you expect law enforcement to do in situations where people are clearly and obviously resisting arrest. He wasnt beaten. He wasnt tazed. They didnt try to attack joints to take him down. No one intended to hurt or harm him. If he werent 400 pounds and a cheeseburger away from a heart attack, he wouldnt be dead today.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

You need to understand that to some people it's the law and you have to do what the law says is a very powerful argument. Therefore, if the law says you did something wrong and you don't act like a submissive little sheep you're being out of line and force is called for to get you to behave. It's the circle of logic that is necessary to really believe in any of this stuff really and it's one of the reasons I no longer do.

I don't either. There is no sense of proportion to it anymore.
 
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