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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

  1. #931
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Now this is the new thing I guess.

    CNN Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

    These cases - Trayvon, Ferguson, NYC - aren't about race. I know that's the agenda, but that's not what they're about. It's about confrontation between police and uncooperative citizens, and how these situations are handled.

    And anyone here would be uncomfortable if a guy kept walking back and forth in front of your house and staring at you with his hands in his pockets. Of course they called the police, and of course the policeman pulled over on the call to investigate the situation. It wouldn't matter the race of the guy scoping you out in front of your house. You'd want it looked into, as would I.

    Now it's going to be the new thing to set up police officers like this. The end result is nobody is going to want to join the police force anymore. Then what?

  2. #932
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    My position is that he died as a result of police action. That makes it a homicide. That you're still trying to claim that it was asthma and his weight that killed him is like saying JFK was killed by blood loss and not Oswald firing a bullet into his head. Not only does it avoid the fact that his asthma and weight were perfectly fine until he came into contact with the police, it paints his death as the result of his health problems and not the fact that police action led to his death. Are you still trying? Move along, VanceMack.
    What did he die of. What is the physiological cause of death?

    ANd BTW...as you find the law enforcement officers that were arresting him as the 'cause of death', do you find him guilty of contributory negligence for resisting arrest?

  3. #933
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    It was 'arrest' the moment he decided he wasnt going to be arrested OR detained.

    Look...the facts are what they are. The police arrested him. He resisted. They took him down and cuffed him. He died because he was morbidly obese and had associated health concerns, not because he was arrested and not because he was choked to death. Whether people agree the charges were substantiated or not is really not relevant. Lots of people are pulled over and dont agree with the ticket they are given and they fight and win. Hell...I've won ticket challenges in court. There is a right way and wrong way to do it. One way possibly results in a win. The other way is almost certain to end as a loss...even if the charges are unfounded.

    he died directly due to police aggression.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Yea, god forbid we hold citizens accountable for their behavior.
    Like Cliven Bundy?
    "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post

    No...there is a world of difference between being arrested by law enforcement officials and being assaulted. One case is backed by the rule of law and the other is not. But you go ahead and feel free to fight an arrest by a law enforcement officer. That IS what you are advocating...right? (Seems we have already had this discussion). Just remember that video...k?
    The rule of law only changes legality, not reality, and furthermore, they didn't have probable cause so your legality excuse doesn't apply. Nice try though.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Resisting arrest? Looks like to me his hands were up in the air when they grabbed him, and took him down.


    Sorry has shown it was already banned.


    Did he attempt to take his hands away from being cuffed? Did he not put his hand up and slightly push the cop back even though it wasn't really a push?

    Banned doesn't mean it was illegal.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Texmex View Post
    No one with any sense wants to join the Tea-baggers.


    Being vulgar doesn't help your argument.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by beefheart View Post
    If you don't think there are some really bad cops out there, you are living in a dream world.

    ‘I hate n*ggers. That is all’: 5 Ohio deputies probed for years of racist text messages
    Bad cops, bad mechanics, bad builders, bad firemen, bad soldiers, bad teachers, bad drivers, bad welders, bad plumbers. So what?

  9. #939
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by CMPancake View Post





    Note that there are two distinctive different styles of "chokes". An air/windpipe choke and a blood/Carotid choke.

    The first type focuses on actually impeding the pathway in which the body takes in air by constricting or attempting those pathways. It typically is far more difficult to get a true "Choke out" from a choke like this, and thus is more used as a means of inducing pain and/or the feeling of trouble breathing...perhaps for compliance purposes, or to help force a reaction that opens up a transition to a blood choke. These kind of chokes typically are ones that utilize an instrument or a portion of the body directly across something like the trachea.

    The second type focus on impeding pathways that bring blood, and thus oxygen, to the brain, usually by applying pressure to something like the carotid arteries. These kind of chokes are the ones most commonly resulting in a "chokeout" type of effect, sometimes very quickly. Pain on these is generally significantly less than on an air choke, with it being more a feeling of intense pressure. Typically this is better for actually incapaciting someone than necessarily compliance purposes.

    The second picture you have there is pretty much textbook blood choke. The bicep and forearm form a V, applying pressure to the carotid as it's primary method of "choking".

    The first picture is closer to an air choke, as you can see the forearm is (somewhat) across the throat and there's not a lot of pressure on the carotid. However, there's a couple of caveats here.

    1) It's not uncommon to see someone that is attempting a blood style rear naked end up in something akin to the air choke variation for averity of reasons (i.e. poor technique, not fully getting the arm into position, the person attempting to work out of the choke). So it's possible that's in this instance the cop was going for a blood choke, and for whatever reason it ended up an air choke.

    2) Either way, he's appears to potentially be doing it poorly (possibly due to technique, possibly due to actions by the person he's attacking, impossible to say). If he's trying for a blood choke, he's failing miserably. If he's trying an air choke, he's may still not be doing a good job of it, though that's a bit harder to see. For an air choke you want the focal point flat against the pathway you're attacking, not at an angle which will apply uneven pressure and make space that can be used to resist. His arms at an angle there, though it's hard to tell if that's because the guys throat is truly turned at that same angle or if it's just him misapplying it.

    To Rev's point...in the way it's being talked about here, in terms of a "chokeout" type effect, an air choke could probably be accurately described as more of a "hold". Air Chokes are painful, and make breathing very difficult, but don't normally result in an easy means of unconsiousness. In some ways it's more comparable to a joint lock or pressure point and other form of pain compliance "holds" than a blood choke. To rev's point as well, in many cases with an air choke (especially with someone doing it poorly), there's still air that can be coming through allowing for speech.

    Had this been a perfectly healthy person I'm unsure if we would've even seen him truly fall unconsious unless the officer significantly managed to shift his choke around. However, given that the individual had a number of health factors that contributed to breathing issues already, the air choke proved to be far more effective in terms of unconsiousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Keep at it, it gets really fun at blue belt. make sure your school promotes based on ability, not time in grade.
    Agree entirely with Reverend here even though we come from different backgrounds...it's a good rule of thumb for identifying any good martial arts school. It's one thing to use time in grade to determine when to have testing to potentially promote, but you want a school where you need to show you actually have the expected level of mastery over whatever it is you're expected to know at that belt in order to be promoted rather than simply "you've done x classes, you pretty much get your next belt". You'll get the most out of it that way

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Being vulgar doesn't help your argument.
    Makes him feel good. But its clear when he has lost.

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