• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

I believe you are better than this. You have not seen the evidence.
I've seen the video. Garner was unarmed and non-violent. One of the officers used a choke hold. Another pushed his head into the ground, and sat on his back, compressing his chest.

The autopsy indicated that both of these were instrumental in causing Garner's cardiac arrest.

I also know that grand juries almost never decline to indict. It's not a system where evidence is challenged; it's almost always a mere formality. It certainly doesn't match the level of scrutiny of a full file.

But hey, why talk about police brutality and injustices of the courts, when we can bitch about taxes? :roll:

It’s Incredibly Rare For A Grand Jury To Do What Ferguson’s Just Did | FiveThirtyEight
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Troubles me that one there is a law against selling individual cigs. But two, he there is that law and he broke in many times.
Dude was not a saint and was well known to the police. Never ends well for anyone.

One must take up liberal laws designed to extract the greatest possible amount of wealth from your neighbors with the ones who routinely do it. Liberalism requires vast amounts of plunder.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Seriously? A New York cop chokes a low-level bad-behaviour perp and people should protest liberalism?

Ahemcoughtunnelvisioncough

Well, liberalism created the black market, a liberal told the popo to rid the city of the scourge of loosies, there's enough blame to go around.

Fact. Dude didnt neet to be protected and served the **** out of for a loosie
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I don't know how the grand jury system works. And don't have the ambition to look into it. But I can absolutely assure you that not every prosecution requires a grand jury. As a matter of fact, if you remember Zimmerman, the DA was heartily criticized because she elected NOT to convene a grand jury.

Okay, here ya' go:

IOW, not every prosecution (in fact, few of them) require a grand jury.

NY state law requires it. Many, including judges, urge eliminating it as it is just a rubber stamp for the prosecutor for its structure and practice.

Yes, I also criticized the DA for not taking it to a GJ. The case against Zimmerman was SO weak and there SO much politics involved (it was election season) that the DA assuredly wanted the publicity. This also was the backwoods of Florida (Central Florida). The good ole folks here are bold enough to defy authority, even a DA. Country folk are more likely to renegade against power in tangible, stubborn ways.

We are seeing the consequences of defying the NYPD! If you lived in NYC, would you give a little bit of thought before indicting some NYPD police given their reputations? There is no legal protection for having served on a GJ. Zero.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

I've seen the video. Garner was unarmed and non-violent. One of the officers used a choke hold. Another pushed his head into the ground, and sat on his back, compressing his chest.

The autopsy indicated that both of these were instrumental in causing Garner's cardiac arrest.

I also know that grand juries almost never decline to indict. It's not a system where evidence is challenged; it's almost always a mere formality. It certainly doesn't match the level of scrutiny of a full file.

But hey, why talk about police brutality and injustices of the courts, when we can bitch about taxes? :roll:

It’s Incredibly Rare For A Grand Jury To Do What Ferguson’s Just Did | FiveThirtyEight

Personally, I doubt the choke hold had much to do with it. It was released quickly . . . he was talking after release. I think it was all about him being on his belly and cops being over-top of him. Try it yourself. Lie on the ground face down and have someone sit on you. You'll see. His weighing 300# and lying on his belly with weight on him is what killed him. His lungs couldn't expand.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

It is true that people are emotional. It is also true that watching a video does not give one all of the relevant facts.
This video in particular shows enough to justify an indictment.


We do not put people through a trial simply so others can feel good about themselves.
Officer Pantaleo hasn't had a trial.


We have Grand Juries who evaluate the evidence the prosecutor has to determine if there is sufficient evidence to charge someone with a crime. This is a check against tyranny.
It's a rubber stamp... unless a cop is involved. As a "check against tyranny," it's almost completely ineffectual.


Without it an officer of the government can charge anyone with any crime no matter whether there is evidence or not.
Yeah, they can do that anyway. Hence, the infamous saying that any prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Citizens never know what the probable cause may be, so they should always proceed with caution. If not:



Police are required to be able to verbally articulate what the reasonable suspicion is to get to probable cause
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Sometimes the Constitution needs some fine tuning to prevent tyrants from reigning indefinitely.

You are like many who shrug and throw up your hands instead of doing what is necessary to preserve liberty. Very well. Arm up. The time of troubles will come if we do not have a Convention of States under Article V of the Constitution.

Stand down, laddybuck. Conservative resistance to tyranny will always be implied, low-key, case-by-case, lest powers they relish be removed from government. If you want a full-out armed rebellion against tyranny, you need liberals.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Well, liberalism created the black market, a liberal told the popo to rid the city of the scourge of loosies, there's enough blame to go around.

Fact. Dude didnt neet to be protected and served the **** out of for a loosie

What?
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I agree - my point is that I'd rather have a court and a jury, hearing all evidence, determine if they believe the form of arrest was warranted in this case and if not then the officer's contribution to the eventual death would be penalized accordingly. Such a jury would be able to weigh both sides of the argument, in public view, rather than in secret, and it would better serve justice in the eyes of the community.

Okay, so you would prefer to have some other form of justice system that the one we have created over the last eight or nine centuries? If you like your liberty you can keep your liberty.

As soon as you decide that your neighbors can no longer act as a check on tyrannical powers then you will get more tyrannical powers. If you like arbitrary arrests and trials just keep going the way you are going.

Grand Jury proceedings are secret for a variety of very good reasons. It is unusual for them to be made public.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Citizens never know what the probable cause may be, so they should always proceed with caution. If not:



I can understand breaking the window.

But there is that damn "your resisting" CRAP. At NO point did she resist arrest. She resisted rolling her window down. She did not resist arrest.

There are a few offenses I personally would never find a person guilty of unless there was tangible damage or injury: "disorderly conduct," "disturbing the peace" and "resisting arrest." No injury to the officer? Without a video showing an attack there was no resisting arrest in my opinion. A person doesn't have to assist police in their own physical injury, including assisting in having their arm twisted up behind their back.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Okay, so you would prefer to have some other form of justice system that the one we have created over the last eight or nine centuries? If you like your liberty you can keep your liberty.

As soon as you decide that your neighbors can no longer act as a check on tyrannical powers then you will get more tyrannical powers. If you like arbitrary arrests and trials just keep going the way you are going.

Grand Jury proceedings are secret for a variety of very good reasons. It is unusual for them to be made public.
I see tyranny in this video but it wasn't being committed by Eric Garner.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Okay, so you would prefer to have some other form of justice system that the one we have created over the last eight or nine centuries? If you like your liberty you can keep your liberty.

As soon as you decide that your neighbors can no longer act as a check on tyrannical powers then you will get more tyrannical powers. If you like arbitrary arrests and trials just keep going the way you are going.

Grand Jury proceedings are secret for a variety of very good reasons. It is unusual for them to be made public.


Posting falsehoods is now your specialty, isn't it? Grand jurors aren't your neighbors. There will not be ONE grand juror that lived in Gardener's neighborhood. Gardener is poor. Being a grand juror us generally a treat given to older political supporters and social types for the experience of having done so.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Personally, I doubt the choke hold had much to do with it. It was released quickly . . . he was talking after release.
1) The autopsy stated that compression of the throat was a contributing factor to the subsequent cardiac arrest.
2) He was saying "I CAN'T BREATHE."


I think it was all about him being on his belly and cops being over-top of him. Try it yourself. Lie on the ground face down and have someone sit on you. You'll see. His weighing 300# and lying on his belly with weight on him is what killed him. His lungs couldn't expand.
Yes, compression of Garner's chest, by the officers sitting on his back, were also a contributing factor.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Stand down, laddybuck. Conservative resistance to tyranny will always be implied, low-key, case-by-case, lest powers they relish be removed from government. If you want a full-out armed rebellion against tyranny, you need liberals.

There is no historic basis for that. Both the left and the right can break out in armed rebellion.

The government in the USA is far, far too powerful for there to ever be any wide scale rebellion no matter what the reason. No government on earth has more prepared itself to squash a rebellion of any size for any reason than the USA.
 
Last edited:
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

1) The autopsy stated that compression of the throat was a contributing factor to the subsequent cardiac arrest.
2) He was saying "I CAN'T BREATHE."



Yes, compression of Garner's chest, by the officers sitting on his back, were also a contributing factor.

Yes, and the overall stress and pain also added to it.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

It takes a long time to get the stench of pig off, some former police officers are never able to completely escape the scent.

This is one of the ugliest statements I have seen here. I think this deserves flagging.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Okay, so you would prefer to have some other form of justice system that the one we have created over the last eight or nine centuries?
Oddly enough, most nations have eliminated grand juries, without the disastrous tyrannical consequences.

By the way, don't you already classify the US as a "tyranny" anyway...?
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j



Nanny state creates black markets.


diblasio charges police to protect tobacco revenue.

garner dies for failig to pay said revenue.
 
Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

I can understand breaking the window.

But there is that damn "your resisting" CRAP. At NO point did she resist arrest. She resisted rolling her window down. She did not resist arrest.

She didn't roll her window down. She didn't open the door. And yes, the moment the officer said, 'open the door, I'm detaining you,' she didn't comply. Yes, she resisted arrest.

There are a few offenses I personally would never find a person guilty of unless there was tangible damage or injury: "disorderly conduct," "disturbing the peace" and "resisting arrest." No injury to the officer? Without a video showing an attack there was no resisting arrest in my opinion.

That's debatable. Resisting arrest can be seen as an admission of guilt, and won't go over in your favour during a hearing. The other two, so long as no one complains, is a non-issue.

A person doesn't have to assist police in their own physical injury, including assisting in having their arm twisted up behind their back.

You don't have to asset them, but don't resist them.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Well we're certainly skipping down the path. We need to get some reasonable restraint on the entire system.

And yet you do not want to take the one remaining legal step to secure liberty for a few more generations. Article V Convention of States. Without it there is only troubled times ahead.
 
Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

Sure it contributed...however he resisted arrest. It would not be practical to give all suspects a health checkup before placing them under arrest.
Resisting arrest and a contributing factor of death deserves an indictment to a jury trial.

Not according to the grand jury. I am betting they have a lot more information available to them then we do. I would be interested in reading their report if it's released before jumping to any conclusions of guilt. One of the reasons we have grand juries is to avoid suspects being financially ruined unnecessarily...if there is nothing legally to indict him on.

As I've stated now multiple times - even if the GJ evidence was all in the cops favor - the video is enough to indict the cop.
 
Back
Top Bottom