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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    Do you have a link on this info or can I just google it?
    You can find Garner's criminal background reporting his 30 previous arrests with a google search and find a number of references.
    Here is one reported by CBS-NY on Ramsey Orta.
    Man Who Recorded Garner Arrest Pleads Not Guilty To Gun Charges CBS New York

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    Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

    Quote Originally Posted by 1750Texan View Post
    30 black men are killed by PD per 1,000,000.

    1 white man is killed by PD per 1,000,000.

    Micheal Brown's death is not an anomaly.
    You sure about those statistics? In NYC, it is just the opposite.

    n NYC 2011, 515 people were victims of homicide. 62% were black 319 dead black people). Of the known murderers of those black people, 83% were black.
    Conversely, there a grand total of 40 people killed by law enforcement officers in NYC. 44% of those shot were white. 33% of those shot were Hispanic. 22% (9 people) were black. 67% of the black people shot had first fired on the cops.

    Like I said...you sure about those stats or are you just making **** up?

    http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...der_in_nyc.pdf
    http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...eport_2011.pdf

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    It's not "thug stuff" it's reality and pertinent in discerning the truth. And yes Garner resisted arrest. What do you call a person who has been arrested 30 times? St. Francis of Assisi? A "gentle giant"? This guy was no stranger to the cops.
    Garner was arguing with the cops who were there to arrest him after he got busted for selling untaxed (black market) cigarettes by an undercover cop. A crime he was currently on bail awaiting trial, along with driving without a licence, possession of drugs, and false personation. He was in no way co-operating with the police.

    The one that created this video and added all the "commentary" was his friend Ramsey Orta who also has a rap sheet including a couple of felonies. According to court records he was due in court on robbery charges stemming from a May arrest and an assault charge from an arrest that occurred three days prior of him filming this video. A few weeks after the death of Garner he was spotted in a drug prone district under surveillance by undercover cops. He was in possession of a gun. Felons aren't allowed to have guns and he got arrested again. Why is this important? Neither Ramsey Orta nor Garner were/are law abiding citizens. The police had a reason for being there that day. It's not due to racial profiling or mistreating another over the color of their skin. They were there because of criminal activity.
    Blah blah blah blah blah. All that has nothing to do with cops using lethal force against a non-violent man.
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    Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

    I aint sayin...I'm just sayin. The 'chokehold' was applied at 44 seconds into the video. It was released at 52 seconds into the video after the suspect was on the ground and subdued.

    A 'chokehold'...for 8 seconds...did not cause his death. Sorry...thats just fact.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Here's what bothers me so much about this. A father of 6 is dead. Why? I can't find a good reason. Can you?

    So here's what bothers me of the reason why people give: "He was RESISTING arrest."

    Was he? He didn't want to be arrested for certain. But I don't see him fighting anyone. He didn't like someone poking at his chest or grabbing at his arm. I don't hear any commands of turn around or get on the ground or put your hands behind you back.

    I have come to completely disagree with - for petty infractions - if a person isn't INSTANTLY totally submissive they are "resisting" is given by armchair police groupies and wannabe pretend tough cops themselves - and therefore can be jumped by a bunch of police, thrown to the ground, face shoved into concrete, beaten, tasered, chocked, kicked, and clubs - often with horrific massive injuries, disfigurement, and occasionally killed.

    That father of 6 had not threatened those officers in any way. He had not tried to flee. He was arguing that there was no reason to arrest him and that he is tired of police arresting him every time they see him. Yeah, I'd get tired of that too. it'd be like the police pulling you over ever time they see and taking you in for reckless driving - claiming some unnamed person phone it in. I don't see him "RESISTING" at all. Yet if he was, the level of his resistance is relevant.

    If that HAD been a street gang who had jumped him for his wallet (instead of government enforcers jumping him for his wallet via fines), without a doubt those gang members would have been indicted for murder. Yet not one of those officers will even be admonished. And the police union would win a grievance if they were.

    An officer jumps up on his back from behind with a chock hold and - and 2 other officers drive him down onto concrete, with another officer #99 putting his body weight on the man's head shoving it into concrete - while the surprise attack-from-behind choker is still choking him. That is definitely a WTF!!!

    YouTube if FULL of those videos. Now and then we debate them on the forum - for which the "but he was RESISTING" rationale is tossed out - which then justified any gang violence of any kind against the person. We've seen a person whose only offense was a being a street person in a nice part of town beaten and crushed to death by 5 officers. That's ok, because he was "resisting." This guy is dead - justified because "he was resisting."

    Totally, absolute submissiveness or any amount of violence and assault then is done to the citizen by the government?

    Somehow that doesn't seem what the American Revolution and the concept of "land of the free" is about. Each instance of this has more angered me. Those officers jumped that obese old guy like a bunch of street gang punks trying to take his wallet. What he was accused of - no evidence seen of it - was so trivial, so petty, and so common it almost laughable at their radical response - their gang assault leaving 6 children without their father.

    Screw this. This "resisting" justifies any level of police violence needs to stop. Seriously, "resisting" isn't justification to violently gang attack someone because the attackers are police officers.

    A citizen is dead because a group of government agents jumped him like a pack of gangsters for an allegation that he had not paid a 29 cent tax on an alleged - but unseen - cigarette he sold.

    This fellow citizen doesn't like that. I don't like it a lot. I bet his children and their mother like it even less.
    Last edited by joko104; 12-04-14 at 03:18 AM.

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    Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I aint sayin...I'm just sayin. The 'chokehold' was applied at 44 seconds into the video. It was released at 52 seconds into the video after the suspect was on the ground and subdued.

    A 'chokehold'...for 8 seconds...did not cause his death. Sorry...thats just fact.
    No, that is not accurate nor was the chockhold in isolation as it was in the video presented earlier. It was part of a collective attack.

    The legal question was NOT just manslaughter/murder. The DA ONLY gave those options not wanting an indictment.

    The DA did not give the option of lesser charges such assault, violation of civil rights, official misconduct or official oppression.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Here's what bothers me so much about this. A father of 6 is dead. Why? I can't find a good reason. Can you?

    So here's what bothers me of the reason why people give: "He was RESISTING arrest."
    You need to understand that to some people it's the law and you have to do what the law says is a very powerful argument. Therefore, if the law says you did something wrong and you don't act like a submissive little sheep you're being out of line and force is called for to get you to behave. It's the circle of logic that is necessary to really believe in any of this stuff really and it's one of the reasons I no longer do.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Here's what bothers me so much about this. A father of 6 is dead. Why? I can't find a good reason. Can you?

    So here's what bothers me of the reason why people give: "He was RESISTING arrest."

    Was he? He didn't want to be arrested for certain. But I don't see him fighting anyone. He didn't like someone poking at his chest or grabbing at his arm. I don't hear any commands of turn around or get on the ground or put your hands behind you back.

    I have come to completely disagree with - for petty infractions - if a person isn't INSTANTLY totally submissive they are "resisting" is given by armchair police groupies and wannabe pretend tough cops themselves - and therefore can be jumped by a bunch of police, thrown to the ground, face shoved into concrete, beaten, tasered, chocked, kicked, and clubs - often with horrific massive injuries, disfigurement, and occasionally killed.

    That father of 6 had not threatened those officers in any way. He had not tried to flee. He was arguing that there was no reason to arrest him and that he is tired of police arresting him every time they see him. Yeah, I'd get tired of that too. I don't see him "RESISTING" at all. Yet if he was, the level of his resistance is relevant.

    If that HAD been a street gang who had jumped him for his wallet (instead of government enforcers jumping him for his wallet via fines), without a doubt those gang members would have been indicted for murder. Yet not one of those officers will even be admonished. And the police union would win a grievance if they were.

    YouTube if FULL of those videos. Now and then we debate them on the forum - for which the "but he was RESISTING" - which then justified any gang violence of any kind against the person. We've seen a person whose only offense was a being a street person in a nice part of town beaten and crushed to death by 5 officers. That's ok, because he was "resisting." This guy is dead - justified because "he was resisting."

    Totally, absolute submissiveness or any amount of violence and assault then is done to the citizen by the government.

    Somehow that doesn't seem what the American Revolution and the concept of "land of the free" is about. Each instance of this has more angered me. Those officers jumped that obese old guy like a bunch of street gang punks trying to take his wallet. What he was accused of - no evidence seen of it - was so trivial, so petty, and so common it almost laughable at their radical response - their gang assault leaving 6 children without their father.

    Screw this. This "resisting" justifies any level of police violence needs to stop. Seriously, "resisting" isn't justification to violently gang attack someone because the attackers are police officers.

    A citizen is dead because a group of government agents jumped him like a pack of gangsters for an allegation that he had not paid a 29 cent tax on an alleged - but unseen - cigarette he sold.

    This fellow citizen doesn't like that. I don't like it a lot. I bet his children and their mother like it even less.
    Dood, get real.

    He is dead because he was unhealthy as hell, resisted arrest, and had a heart attack. You claim he wasnt resisting arrest. WTF? In the same paragraph you state he was arguing that there was no reason for the arrest and he didnt like people grabbing his arms. You then later say besides..I dont care if he was resisting. What the hell do you think they were doing grabbing his arms if not attempting to arrest. NOT resisting arrest would be, OK...fine, hands behind my back, book me, and I'll beat your trumped up charges. He DID resist arrest and a cop grabbed him from behind. In 8 seconds he was on the ground and the officer that took him down was no longer choking him but was on his shoulders holding him down.

    Tell me what you think the cops options are in that situation. They saw what they believed to be a criminal offense...selling unlicensed cigarettes, something he was found guilty of in the past. He didnt want to be arrested. Now what? Cops just walk away saying "ok....dangit!" Next time they pull over someone under suspicion of DUI should they just not arrest the guy if the guy says I dont want to be arrested!?

    I dont know if he was guilty of the crime or not. I do know that when you have a system of laws and a society that requires 'order', then when law enforcement officials make the decision to arrest you, you dont get to say 'no' and walk away.

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    Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    No, that is not accurate nor was the chockhold in isolation as it was in the video presented earlier. It was part of a collective attack.

    The legal question was NOT just manslaughter/murder. The DA ONLY gave those options not wanting an indictment.

    The DA did not give the option of lesser charges such assault, violation of civil rights, official misconduct or official oppression.
    The same person that grabbed him from behind is the same person that moved to his shoulders and held his head down 8 seconds after he hit the ground. The entire time he was saying "I CANT BREATHE! I CANT BREATHE!" guess what he was doing. BREATHING. He was overweight, out of shape, and had asthma. He wasnt being choked out. He died because he over exerted himself resisting arrest, hence the factors acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease

    I feel bad that he is dead. I feel bad for his family. I really dont know what you and people like you expect law enforcement to do in situations where people are clearly and obviously resisting arrest. He wasnt beaten. He wasnt tazed. They didnt try to attack joints to take him down. No one intended to hurt or harm him. If he werent 400 pounds and a cheeseburger away from a heart attack, he wouldnt be dead today.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    You need to understand that to some people it's the law and you have to do what the law says is a very powerful argument. Therefore, if the law says you did something wrong and you don't act like a submissive little sheep you're being out of line and force is called for to get you to behave. It's the circle of logic that is necessary to really believe in any of this stuff really and it's one of the reasons I no longer do.
    I don't either. There is no sense of proportion to it anymore.

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