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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Specifics...

    Listening to the debate and watching the tape many times...

    I have listened to this MANY times. Listening for this: "You're under arrest." "Get down on the ground." "Turn around and put your hands on the wall." "Put your hands behind your back."

    It isn't there.

    What I see is one officer poking him in the chest while another officer jumps up on him from behind with a chock held. He is then taken to the ground by multiple officers - while the one officer continues to chock him, another is shoving his head into concrete and another with his weight on the man's back - with totally, 100% disregard for the man saying he can't breathe.

    I would have indicted, but not for manslaughter/murder. I would have been willing to indict 1.) the officer who jumped up on him from behind with a chock hold and 2.) #99 pressing his head into the concrete for 1.) aggravated assault and 2.) official oppression (or relevantly worded law).

    They ganged up on and as a result killed a father of 6 for no good reason whatsoever. I would have voted to indict, but not for murder/manslaughter.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I formed my opinion without regard to the GJ decision. The GJ ONLY hears what the DA presents - who is employed by the same government the police are - and there is mega millions at stake in a potential civil suit - plus battling the police union - if a conviction. Grand jurors aren't randomly selected or elected either. They are picked by the criminal justice system, which is a closed, self protecting system. You also can't sue for even the most grotesquely illegal conduct within the criminal justice system. They are self protecting in every way - including legally.

    It would be EXTREMELY rare for a GJ to indict against the wishes of the DA.

    There is only one state that does not limit it to only the DA can present evidence to a grand jury - and that's Texas. However, that aspect of old Texas law isn't advertised. It's called "citizen's direct grand jury referral." Under the 1800s Texas constitution, ANYONE can ask to speak to the county grand jury. This was to prevent government corruption. Of course, Texas doesn't advertise that now.

    It should be that way everywhere. ANYONE who wanted to present evidence to that grand jury should have been able to, including his family. Instead, the criminal justice system is closes and self protective. As a result, no DA or cop is every prosecuted for false affidavits, false reports, perjury etc. The only cops who will be prosecuted are those the government wants prosecuted - and that is very, very rare, particularly for the civil liabilities that then result against the governmental entity.

    An indictment would mean a $50,000,000 lawsuit against the city. That is a $50 million dollar incentive not to indict.
    You formed your opinion based on a four minute video. Nice. And grand juries are corrupt if they do not return the results you want. Even better.

    Ride your high horse on over to the court house and volunteer for grand jury duty.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Do you realize how hypocritical you look when you agreed with Clive Bundy's bull**** argument about ancestral rights* while ignoring that he broke the law by not paying millions in taxes and then come here justifying this vicious attack by the NYPD because someone decided this guy was the worst criminal since... I don't know... any other low level bootleg cigarette peddler in the continental US?
    What in HELL are you talking about?? Lordy.

    As to "he was only selling bootleg cigs," what I gleaned from the video and news story was that they told him to move along . . . and he wouldn't. They were answering a complaint from shop keepers. Cop gives you a lawful order? Do it. Cop gives you an UNlawful order, do it. Fight your battle somewhere else besides the street. He was, as are so many people who die or are injured at the hands of cops, an IDIOT.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    So he killed himself? Not according to the coroner's report. The cop killed him. It was ruled a homicide, not a suicide.
    When a person resists arrest, his own death can be an unfortunate, but not unforeseen, consequence. The coroner ruled on the manner of death. Look up homicide. You're a bit confused.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Yes, but heart trauma also can cause this. A person with a weak heart can not pump the oxygen fast enough - thus the person can't catch their breathe. That is why if a person is having difficulty breathing goes to ER they will do an EKG - though seemingly the lungs and heart are not related to each other.

    The heart of a 400 pound older guy under stress and attack likely is going to experience breathing difficulty- which is really a heart issue, the heart already aged and strained having to deal with 400 pounds. As the video shows, when the chock hold released the heart rate soars - poising danger of everything from heart attack to stroke (freeing a clot) to blood vessel in brain bursting. I suspect that under all those stresses and demands his heart threw in the towel.
    I can support that 100%, Joko.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    One thing I don't recall hearing is an officer telling him to turn around and but his hands behind his back or even "you're under arrest." I just see a police officer grabbing at his arm, then another and him then taken down.

    Was he ever told "you're under arrest" or "put your hands behind you back" (or in the air or "get on the ground" etc.)? Maybe I just missed that part of it. It seems before someone is "resisting arrest" they have to be told they are under arrest, not just grabbing at him. Again, I maybe missed that part of it.
    I don't remember hearing that either. If I think about it tomorrow, I'll have another look-see.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    No... Never once did he swat at the police. He flailed a bit in his own personal space and tried to retract his arms after the cops grabbed his arm. I dont get why you are posting some "thug" stuff that has nothing to do with the event captured on video. Your tactic seems to be "The cops wrong doing should be ignored because it would be a shame to punish him killing someone who was a "thug". Thats a pretty crappy tactic.
    It's not "thug stuff" it's reality and pertinent in discerning the truth. And yes Garner resisted arrest. What do you call a person who has been arrested 30 times? St. Francis of Assisi? A "gentle giant"? This guy was no stranger to the cops.
    Garner was arguing with the cops who were there to arrest him after he got busted for selling untaxed (black market) cigarettes by an undercover cop. A crime he was currently on bail awaiting trial, along with driving without a licence, possession of drugs, and false personation. He was in no way co-operating with the police.

    The one that created this video and added all the "commentary" was his friend Ramsey Orta who also has a rap sheet including a couple of felonies. According to court records he was due in court on robbery charges stemming from a May arrest and an assault charge from an arrest that occurred three days prior of him filming this video. A few weeks after the death of Garner he was spotted in a drug prone district under surveillance by undercover cops. He was in possession of a gun. Felons aren't allowed to have guns and he got arrested again. Why is this important? Neither Ramsey Orta nor Garner were/are law abiding citizens. The police had a reason for being there that day. It's not due to racial profiling or mistreating another over the color of their skin. They were there because of criminal activity.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    You pretty much would have to sell to the grand jury that the officers knew this man wasn't guilty of anything but they took him down and arrested him anyway. To me, that's a reach.



    Actually, it isn't a "reach" at all.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    It's not "thug stuff" it's reality and pertinent in discerning the truth. And yes Garner resisted arrest. What do you call a person who has been arrested 30 times? St. Francis of Assisi? A "gentle giant"? This guy was no stranger to the cops.
    Garner was arguing with the cops who were there to arrest him after he got busted for selling untaxed (black market) cigarettes by an undercover cop. A crime he was currently on bail awaiting trial, along with driving without a licence, possession of drugs, and false personation. He was in no way co-operating with the police.

    The one that created this video and added all the "commentary" was his friend Ramsey Orta who also has a rap sheet including a couple of felonies. According to court records he was due in court on robbery charges stemming from a May arrest and an assault charge from an arrest that occurred three days prior of him filming this video. A few weeks after the death of Garner he was spotted in a drug prone district under surveillance by undercover cops. He was in possession of a gun. Felons aren't allowed to have guns and he got arrested again. Why is this important? Neither Ramsey Orta nor Garner were/are law abiding citizens. The police had a reason for being there that day. It's not due to racial profiling or mistreating another over the color of their skin. They were there because of criminal activity.


    Do you have a link on this info or can I just google it?

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    What in HELL are you talking about?? Lordy.

    As to "he was only selling bootleg cigs," what I gleaned from the video and news story was that they told him to move along . . . and he wouldn't. They were answering a complaint from shop keepers. Cop gives you a lawful order? Do it. Cop gives you an UNlawful order, do it. Fight your battle somewhere else besides the street. He was, as are so many people who die or are injured at the hands of cops, an IDIOT.
    He was an idiot, but they didn't need to choke him to death.

    Maybe they should have punched him in the throat or coerced him with food or some ****..

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