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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I love how people who pretend to believe in liberty and freedom voice opinions aligning them with the virtues of a police state.
    Are you making an effort to goad me Hay?

    What is it about civilians being in control of the government's ability to prosecute people, part of the tradition of a free people that is intended to prevent a police state, that has you confused?

    And you were a teacher? Those poor children.

    You already know my opinion of you. It remains low. You, and people like you have the pretensions of wanting liberty and justice but without all the mess of having real people involved. A grand jury, something a teacher of government ought to be familiar with, reviewed the evidence the prosecutor had and they determined that the government did not have sufficient evidence to charge anyone with a crime.

    And you hate that result. Many who have the heart of a tyrant do.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Allegedly.
    You pretty much would have to sell to the grand jury that the officers knew this man wasn't guilty of anything but they took him down and arrested him anyway. To me, that's a reach.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    This is ****ing unreal. It was an prohibited choke hold and the coroner called it a homicide, how does that not generate at the very least a manslaughter charge?
    Probably because the guy did not die until after it was stopped when he was still talking would be my guess. Normally I would go the other way, but the video in the case made it look more like an inadvertent and unintended consequence by having to have so many people take down the guy who was not being cooperative albeit not combative either.

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    Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I mean, we can see pretty clearly in the video that the man died due to the struggle with the officers, I don't know what you think you're proving here. That's all the coroner is saying, and nobody is disagreeing with it.

    Where we disagree is that I believe the officers used reasonable force and that the man's death was caused by the use of that reasonable force coupled with pre-existing health conditions.

    The coroner has said nothing contrary to that.

    The video tells you everything you need to know. A healthy individual would not have died from being tackled.
    No, that also is false. He did not die as a result of "struggling with the officers."

    "Struggling" is not a cause of death.

    However, you do raise a question in that should the force be relative to the person it is used against?

    In your opinion, would that force have been reasonable against a 3 year old? A 90 year old? I gather in your opinion the answer is yes, that the person him/herself is irrelevant.

    Obviously that man was not a "healthy person." In fact, people like you are claiming that is blatantly obvious.

    Hmmmm, think about that for a moment. The offense (alleged)? Selling cigarettes on the street without a permit. The person doing it? A person obviously in very poor health. So... what should the attitude of the police then be? Clearly, your view is to disregard the poor health of the person. Even use it against him maybe?.
    Last edited by joko104; 12-04-14 at 01:43 AM.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    You are walking dead. Everyone is walking dead. Your message is pointless.
    Except, of course, I am not two hundred pounds overweight.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    There was no self defense... The cops were the one assualting. **** you wanna be word-smiths are annoying.
    Well if you want to go there.

    Citizens cannot legally initiate violence. The police can. That includes chokeholds where they aren't prohibited by law or department policy.

    It's not word smithing. Your statements are factually wrong.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    The disallowed chokehold I'll give you. I think the NYPD should reprimand, punish, or even fire the officer for that. If I were the police chief, I'd fire him.

    I don't think a criminal indictment against him is warranted though. It's not like it was just two individuals who got in a fight, and one guy died. That would be manslaughter. This is a case of police officers trying to do their job, and something went wrong in the course of doing that. They should be given more leeway.

    As for whether he was selling cigarettes - notice the one officer making the arrest was dressed as a civilian, most likely it was a sting where he went in undercover and "bought" illegal goods from this man, which resulted in the arrest.

    I don't think he looked that sickly or unhealthy. To me, he just looks like a very large and powerful man, and he looks very agitated and uncooperative.

    The whole thing is very sad though, I agree. Especially over such a stupid and minor crime. And it couldn't have come at a worse time for us as a country.
    You don't see that he's unhealthy? He's morbidly obese and he's not young. That means....he has diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and not a great heart. He also didn't have as much breath as he should (I wonder if he's a smoker). We later found out he had asthma. He was actually pretty respectful to the officers, although he was upset they were going to arrest him and told them just to leave him alone.

    That's a stretch, thinking that the man in street clothes was a sting operation. A sting operation for a guy selling cigarettes on the corner? Are you kidding me? I hope our policemen aren't wasting valuable officer resources doing silly things like that. I doubt they had a sting operation to "catch" an older black man selling ciggies. You know you get a ticket for a misdemeanor...not arrested.

    Let's not forget this is over a misdemeanor. Like jaywalking. At some point an officer has to decide whether to baloon a misdemeanor into a possible homicide situation. I think that was a bad call on the officers' part. I understand he had numerous other arrest for petty offenses, so maybe he had a stack of unpaid tickets, which was the reason for the arrest. If you get stopped on a minor traffic offense, but the officer discovers that you have a bunch of prior offense tickets that you haven't paid, they'll arrest you for that. There's probably a warrant out for your arrest, as well. Maybe that was the situation.

    But to push a man of that size and (to me) obviously unhealthy down belly first on the ground with pressure on top.....I could've guessed he would die. Especially when he repeatedly says "I can't breathe, I can't breathe, I can't breathe." I think THAT'S the egregious behavior. They can actually see the man is in physical distress, and they do nothing. They remain on top of him, ignoring him.

    According to the news story I saw, the coroner said he died from the pressure on his neck and to his lungs from the pressure on his back, or something to that effect. I'd heard it was a heart attack, as a result of the arrest actions. I don't know which is true.
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    Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    No, that also is false. He did not die as a result of "struggling with the officers."

    "Struggling" is not a cause of death.

    However, you do raise a question in that should the force be relative to the person it is used against?

    In your opinion, would that force have been reasonable against a 3 year old? A 90 year old? I gather in your opinion the answer is yes, that the person him/herself is irrelevant.

    Obviously that man was not a "healthy person." In fact, people like you are claiming that is blatantly obvious.

    Hmmmm, think about that for a moment. The offense (alleged)? Selling cigarettes on the street without a permit. The person doing it? A person obviously in very poor health. So... what should the attitude of the police then be? Clearly, your view is to disregard the poor health of the person. Even use it against him maybe?.
    Have you even watched the tape? This guy does not look frail like a 3 year old or a 90 year old. He doesn't look to be in poor health. He looks like a large, aggressive man.


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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    I formed my opinion without regard to the GJ decision. The GJ ONLY hears what the DA presents - who is employed by the same government the police are - and there is mega millions at stake in a potential civil suit - plus battling the police union - if a conviction. Grand jurors aren't randomly selected or elected either. They are picked by the criminal justice system, which is a closed, self protecting system. You also can't sue for even the most grotesquely illegal conduct within the criminal justice system. They are self protecting in every way - including legally.

    It would be EXTREMELY rare for a GJ to indict against the wishes of the DA.

    There is only one state that does not limit it to only the DA can present evidence to a grand jury - and that's Texas. However, that aspect of old Texas law isn't advertised. It's called "citizen's direct grand jury referral." Under the 1800s Texas constitution, ANYONE can ask to speak to the county grand jury. This was to prevent government corruption. Of course, Texas doesn't advertise that now.

    It should be that way everywhere. ANYONE who wanted to present evidence to that grand jury should have been able to, including his family. Instead, the criminal justice system is closes and self protective. As a result, no DA or cop is every prosecuted for false affidavits, false reports, perjury etc. The only cops who will be prosecuted are those the government wants prosecuted - and that is very, very rare, particularly for the civil liabilities that then result against the governmental entity.

    An indictment would mean a $50,000,000 lawsuit against the city. That is a $50 million dollar incentive not to indict.

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    Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Have you even watched the tape? This guy does not look frail like a 3 year old or a 90 year old. He doesn't look to be in poor health. He looks like a large, aggressive man.

    So now you are claiming your prior messages were all just a bunch of crap?

    It's called lack of intellectual integrity on your part. You go on and on that obviously his weight killed him and obviously for his weight he had bad health - then turn around and declare 100% the opposite.

    All that means is you are a police worshipper and there will be no credibility in anything you post.

    What is obvious to me in that video is 1.) the man did not put up any physical fight, 2.) he is not a man whose health supported tackling him to the ground with a chock hold, weigh on top of him and his head pressed to the concrete.

    But, hey, I'll let you debate yourself now on your opposite claims of obviously he was in terrible health and obviously he was in good health.

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