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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

  1. #2741
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Gaius, you are focusing on one video of three that was taken by Garner's friend that doesn't show the cops first approaching him for the arrest. So now you assume that these cops were just harassing a black man with no just cause even though the lieutenant, a black female was there during the arrest. You also fail to include it was minority store owners in the area that called the police over Garner's illegal activity in front of their place of business. This has nothing to do with race.

    The new harsher laws/fines involving selling any untaxed cigarettes went into effect this year. You get arrested and take a trip downtown. The police officers are under orders to enforce the laws.

    But hey let's make it racist instead of addressing excessive taxation on cigarettes which has created the black market.

    Let's get Holder, de Blasio, Obama, and Sharpton making it about race.

    And just for you here is a video of a protest group over this racially charged case marching down the streets of NYC. Listen to what they are chanting.

    "What do we want?" "Dead Cops!"

    I never said, and I don't believe, it had anything to do with race. It has to do with overzealous enforcement of a trivial law and excessive use of force. Had it been a white guy, a Spanish guy or an Asian guy I'd feel the same way. I won't discount that race didn't come into the GJ deliberations at a subconscious level - Staten Island is the whitest county in New York - but that would be complete speculation. That said I do not believe the arrest itself was racially motivated.

    I know it's a law, though it's not clear to me that the law as written applies to individual cigarettes. My contention is that all laws are not created equal. This is a trivial offense. 4-5 cops plus a supervisor's time, even for an hour, cost the city
    $400. Tack on the OT that Pantaleo gets and you're talking something like a thousand dollars spent because some guy evaded a couple bucks in taxes. And now tack on millions that the family will get from the wrongful death suit. And most importantly that some poor slob got killed.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    We're going to have to disagree here. Thank you for the discussion.
    I appreciate the discussion as well...but how can you say "I disagree" when you are PROVEN to be wrong? The only HONEST response from you would have been "Huh...I did not know that. I was wrong". You can still BELIEVE it is a criminal homicide but there is NO WAY you can now still believe the coroner declared it a criminal homicide or anything else other than LABEL it a death in the homicide category. Criminal homicide is not determined with charges, trial, and conviction. Dont 'believe' that...its fact. It doesnt require a 'belief'.

  3. #2743
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I appreciate the discussion as well...but how can you say "I disagree" when you are PROVEN to be wrong? The only HONEST response from you would have been "Huh...I did not know that. I was wrong". You can still BELIEVE it is a criminal homicide but there is NO WAY you can now still believe the coroner declared it a criminal homicide or anything else other than LABEL it a death in the homicide category. Criminal homicide is not determined with charges, trial, and conviction. Dont 'believe' that...its fact. It doesnt require a 'belief'.
    Simply because since I believe that since the a Grand Jury proceeding is a legal proceeding that the legal definition is the operative one. In fact the way I see it since no one is actually charged that supports my claim even more.

    You have absolutely proven what the medical definition is. What you haven't proven is that that is the one that's used at the Grand Jury. That same objection - that the medical definition may be the one used in court - was raised and rebutted in the link I supplied.

    Calling it a homicide at the grand jury level does not make it irrefutably a crime at trial. It simply means that the grand jury really can't look into that aspect of the case. He's not guilty and can claim no intent and or justification at his trial.

    Fwiw, I think the Grand Jury as currently used is terrible. I don't know whether it needs overhaul, or to be tossed completely but it doesn't seem to work - speaking generally here and not specific to this case. That said however I find the statements of a guy who practices NY criminal law daily more compelling that that of a magazine writer or TV talking heads who don't practice here. He may be wrong, but logically he seems right.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Simply because since I believe that since the a Grand Jury proceeding is a legal proceeding that the legal definition is the operative one. In fact the way I see it since no one is actually charged that supports my claim even more.

    You have absolutely proven what the medical definition is. What you haven't proven is that that is the one that's used at the Grand Jury. That same objection - that the medical definition may be the one used in court - was raised and rebutted in the link I supplied.

    Calling it a homicide at the grand jury level does not make it irrefutably a crime at trial. It simply means that the grand jury really can't look into that aspect of the case. He's not guilty and can claim no intent and or justification at his trial.

    Fwiw, I think the Grand Jury as currently used is terrible. I don't know whether it needs overhaul, or to be tossed completely but it doesn't seem to work - speaking generally here and not specific to this case. That said however I find the statements of a guy who practices NY criminal law daily more compelling that that of a magazine writer or TV talking heads who don't practice here. He may be wrong, but logically he seems right.
    So that is that dance I figured was coming...

    Never mind...

  5. #2745
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Mr. Garner's grave provided by NYC. No headstone.

    NYC should put up a headstone that reads: "Here Lies A 27 Cent Tax Cheat" as the city's warning to others. Not collecting sales tax from a customer is serious fucking business in NYC.






    A Visit to Eric Garner's Grave: Unmarked, Untended & Totally Neglected
    Last edited by joko104; 12-16-14 at 03:35 PM.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Mr. Garner's grave provided by NYC. No headstone.

    NYC should put up a headstone that reads: "Here Lies A 27 Cent Tax Cheat" as the city's warning to others. Not collecting sales tax is serious fucking business in NYC.






    A Visit to Eric Garner's Grave: Unmarked, Untended & Totally Neglected
    Add: The 27 million dollar tax cheats are still alive and well, and still cheating.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: NYPD officer in Eric Garner chokehold death not indicted by Staten Island grand j

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    His neighbors, the Grand Jury reviewed the evidence the prosecutor had and determined there was insufficient evidence to declare a crime occurred. If no crime occurred why would anyone go to trial?
    I wish we could understand the grand juries thinking. At least in the Ferguson grand jury we were given evidence they had. For this one nothing.

  8. #2748
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Yes, de Blasio's racist comments directed toward his police force weren't a bit "incendiary". What is so sickening about his rhetoric is the officer's lieutenant is a black female and was there during the arrest of Garner. The order to crackdown on untaxed cigarettes came from the Chief of Department who is also black and the highest ranking uniformed policeman. He gets his orders from the Police Commissioner who was appointed this year by de Blasio. The Commissioner gets his orders from de Blasio.

    The dirty truth is the new harsher penalties for selling untaxed cigarettes in NYC went into effect this year. It was the former Mayor Bloomberg that was responsible for that one. He is also responsible with his war on tobacco raising taxes on a pack of cigarettes so high that it has created the black market problem in NYC. They say almost half the cigarettes consumed in NYC are untaxed. If a person consumed a pack a day at NYC rates, in a week's time they would have put out $91.00. Middle class/lower incomes can't afford it so the black market took off. This is where loosies, selling one cigarette at a time for around .50 to poor people became popular. They could buy 6 smokes for the day at around 3.00 and not have to put out $13 bucks for a pack they did not have. It also helped people like Garner supplement his income, tax free. Whether you bought a loosie or a full pack from him, he was making money on the deal. Now between the loss revenue due to untaxed cigarettes and rich people leaving the city in droves due to the burden of higher taxes put on them, these big government types who need revenue to fund it saw how much they were losing to the black market they had created and the word came from the top to crack down on untaxed cigarettes. They need smokers paying the taxes. After all it is smokers that pay the taxes that fund SHIIP (Medicaid, Seniors and children) and other government programs so non-smokers don't have to. Even this year when Obama started talking about his new daycare proposal he announced his answer on how to fund it: from smokers. The President proposed a 94 cent per pack increase in the federal cigarette tax, with revenue going to support a much needed expansion of early childhood education. Every damn program out of the federal government comes with a responsibility of states to provide a certain amount to receive federal funding.

    If anyone is to blame for Garner's death it is big intrusive government always needing revenue to feed the monsterous kitty they have created. Because that is what led to the police of NYC being forced to uphold the laws of their city that treats such a crime as selling untaxed cigarettes darn near the same as a criminal charged with grand theft auto. De Blasio needs revenue and he went the easy route to find it just like mayors and governors across this country do everyday. Sin taxes. Yet now he, Holder, Obama, Sharpton all big government guys want to blame it on racism. *puke*
    "Taxes killed Eric Garner!"

    What a load of intellectually dishonest crap.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

  9. #2749
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    "Taxes killed Eric Garner!"

    What a load of intellectually dishonest crap.
    Well...if not for the taxes he would not have been in that situation.

    But it was still mistakes on the part of the cops (and possibly him to some degree as well?) that killed him.
    Education.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Nice. In order to have cops, we have to allow them to take down and kill people guilty of misdemeanors.

    I disagree. I think we can have police protection from violent felons without living in a police state.
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