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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    I understand what you're saying but why would the medical definition of a term trump the legal definition in a legal setting? That frankly doesn't make any sense to me. Penal law is what matters in courtrooms.

    I haven't said that the prosecutor bases his decision on the category on the death certificate. What I've said is that the Grand Jury can't not-indict because they believe no crime was committed because under penal law - which matters in a courtroom - the grand jury has to assume a homicide is crime. The prosecutor certainly has the discretion to decide against bringing a case against a specific individual for whatever reason he wants.

    You might find this illuminating reading Eric Garner’s Homicide Solved | Simple Justice. Greenfield is a respected NYC criminal defense attorney who does this stuff for a living and on who's writings I'm basing my opinion. In the comments he addresses the legal vs medical distinction.
    The medical examiners label is the ONLY applicable use of the word homicide. There has been no charges, trial nor conviction to which the penal description of homicide applies. Its a stupid system and I understand why you were confused.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Sunny Hostin, a black woman prosecutor who's commenting on CNN now on this issue, just made an interesting comment.

    She said she's been on the side of the push for cops to be outfitted with cameras so that when incidents happen there can be video of the events that courts and grand juries can see what happened and now we have this incident, fully videoed by a bystander, and it seems to have been irrelevant to the outcome of the grand jury.
    Thankfully, the feds are going to investigate the case.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Thankfully, the feds are going to investigate the case.
    I appreciate the sentiment, but the federal justice department, and not just under this President, is far too political and nothing good will come from an orchestrated witch hunt. If the feds along with the state and local officials want to investigate the rationale for the enforcement of minor bylaws and tax policy, I'd be all for that. But I'm sure the feds are going to try to make this a civil rights circus which will do nothing but inflame the situation.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I appreciate the sentiment, but the federal justice department, and not just under this President, is far too political and nothing good will come from an orchestrated witch hunt. If the feds along with the state and local officials want to investigate the rationale for the enforcement of minor bylaws and tax policy, I'd be all for that. But I'm sure the feds are going to try to make this a civil rights circus which will do nothing but inflame the situation.
    Then we will have to respectfully disagree.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I appreciate the sentiment, but the federal justice department, and not just under this President, is far too political and nothing good will come from an orchestrated witch hunt. If the feds along with the state and local officials want to investigate the rationale for the enforcement of minor bylaws and tax policy, I'd be all for that. But I'm sure the feds are going to try to make this a civil rights circus which will do nothing but inflame the situation.
    I have no doubt Holder will do just that and has already started. He is also being encouraged by Mayor di Blasio who has also made this about race instead of being honest about forcing his police force to treat those who sell untaxed cigarettes like other criminals thanks to new laws. Well this week it backfired on di Blasio when NYC cops started signing waivers not permitting him to attend their funeral if killed in the line of duty. Something the mayor traditionally does.

    It reads like this;

    Don’t Insult My Sacrifice

    I, _____________________, as a New York City police officer, request that Mayor Bill de Blasio and City Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito refrain from attending my funeral services in the event that I am killed in the line of duty. Due to Mayor de Blasio and Speaker Mark-Viverito's consistent refusal to show police officers the support and respect they deserve, I believe that their attendance at the funeral of a fallen New York City police officer is an insult to that officer's memory and sacrifice. _______________________ Signature

    After what di Blasio did to his police department, if I were a cop and got a call from the mayor needing assistance, I'd be real tempted to stop off at Dunkin Donuts on the way, have a couple of custard filled with a cup of coffee before responding.

    Cops tell de Blasio: Stay away from our funerals | New York Post

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    I have no doubt Holder will do just that and has already started. He is also being encouraged by Mayor di Blasio who has also made this about race instead of being honest about forcing his police force to treat those who sell untaxed cigarettes like other criminals thanks to new laws. Well this week it backfired on di Blasio when NYC cops started signing waivers not permitting him to attend their funeral if killed in the line of duty. Something the mayor traditionally does.

    It reads like this;

    Don’t Insult My Sacrifice

    I, _____________________, as a New York City police officer, request that Mayor Bill de Blasio and City Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito refrain from attending my funeral services in the event that I am killed in the line of duty. Due to Mayor de Blasio and Speaker Mark-Viverito's consistent refusal to show police officers the support and respect they deserve, I believe that their attendance at the funeral of a fallen New York City police officer is an insult to that officer's memory and sacrifice. _______________________ Signature

    After what di Blasio did to his police department, if I were a cop and got a call from the mayor needing assistance, I'd be real tempted to stop off at Dunkin Donuts on the way, have a couple of custard filled with a cup of coffee before responding.

    Cops tell de Blasio: Stay away from our funerals | New York Post
    And the mayor's irony-free response is “Incendiary rhetoric like this serves only to divide the city, and New Yorkers reject these tactics".

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    And the mayor's irony-free response is “Incendiary rhetoric like this serves only to divide the city, and New Yorkers reject these tactics".
    Yes, de Blasio's racist comments directed toward his police force weren't a bit "incendiary". What is so sickening about his rhetoric is the officer's lieutenant is a black female and was there during the arrest of Garner. The order to crackdown on untaxed cigarettes came from the Chief of Department who is also black and the highest ranking uniformed policeman. He gets his orders from the Police Commissioner who was appointed this year by de Blasio. The Commissioner gets his orders from de Blasio.

    The dirty truth is the new harsher penalties for selling untaxed cigarettes in NYC went into effect this year. It was the former Mayor Bloomberg that was responsible for that one. He is also responsible with his war on tobacco raising taxes on a pack of cigarettes so high that it has created the black market problem in NYC. They say almost half the cigarettes consumed in NYC are untaxed. If a person consumed a pack a day at NYC rates, in a week's time they would have put out $91.00. Middle class/lower incomes can't afford it so the black market took off. This is where loosies, selling one cigarette at a time for around .50 to poor people became popular. They could buy 6 smokes for the day at around 3.00 and not have to put out $13 bucks for a pack they did not have. It also helped people like Garner supplement his income, tax free. Whether you bought a loosie or a full pack from him, he was making money on the deal. Now between the loss revenue due to untaxed cigarettes and rich people leaving the city in droves due to the burden of higher taxes put on them, these big government types who need revenue to fund it saw how much they were losing to the black market they had created and the word came from the top to crack down on untaxed cigarettes. They need smokers paying the taxes. After all it is smokers that pay the taxes that fund SHIIP (Medicaid, Seniors and children) and other government programs so non-smokers don't have to. Even this year when Obama started talking about his new daycare proposal he announced his answer on how to fund it: from smokers. The President proposed a 94 cent per pack increase in the federal cigarette tax, with revenue going to support a much needed expansion of early childhood education. Every damn program out of the federal government comes with a responsibility of states to provide a certain amount to receive federal funding.

    If anyone is to blame for Garner's death it is big intrusive government always needing revenue to feed the monsterous kitty they have created. Because that is what led to the police of NYC being forced to uphold the laws of their city that treats such a crime as selling untaxed cigarettes darn near the same as a criminal charged with grand theft auto. De Blasio needs revenue and he went the easy route to find it just like mayors and governors across this country do everyday. Sin taxes. Yet now he, Holder, Obama, Sharpton all big government guys want to blame it on racism. *puke*
    Last edited by vesper; 12-13-14 at 08:45 PM.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    The medical examiners label is the ONLY applicable use of the word homicide. There has been no charges, trial nor conviction to which the penal description of homicide applies. Its a stupid system and I understand why you were confused.
    We're going to have to disagree here. Thank you for the discussion.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    I have no doubt Holder will do just that and has already started. He is also being encouraged by Mayor di Blasio who has also made this about race instead of being honest about forcing his police force to treat those who sell untaxed cigarettes like other criminals thanks to new laws. Well this week it backfired on di Blasio when NYC cops started signing waivers not permitting him to attend their funeral if killed in the line of duty. Something the mayor traditionally does.

    It reads like this;

    Don’t Insult My Sacrifice

    I, _____________________, as a New York City police officer, request that Mayor Bill de Blasio and City Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito refrain from attending my funeral services in the event that I am killed in the line of duty. Due to Mayor de Blasio and Speaker Mark-Viverito's consistent refusal to show police officers the support and respect they deserve, I believe that their attendance at the funeral of a fallen New York City police officer is an insult to that officer's memory and sacrifice. _______________________ Signature

    After what di Blasio did to his police department, if I were a cop and got a call from the mayor needing assistance, I'd be real tempted to stop off at Dunkin Donuts on the way, have a couple of custard filled with a cup of coffee before responding.

    Cops tell de Blasio: Stay away from our funerals | New York Post

    Criminal? Get real.

    First it's not clear that Garner was selling anything when he was arrested. Second selling loose cigarettes, strictly speaking, isn't a crime, selling "packages" is. Third, even then it's about as criminal as a guy who rounds up his charitable donations on his income taxes. We're not talking Ted Bundy here.

    As for the cops they can do what they want. di Blasio is just as much the Mayor of Eric Garner as he is of the cops.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Criminal? Get real.

    First it's not clear that Garner was selling anything when he was arrested. Second selling loose cigarettes, strictly speaking, isn't a crime, selling "packages" is. Third, even then it's about as criminal as a guy who rounds up his charitable donations on his income taxes. We're not talking Ted Bundy here.

    As for the cops they can do what they want. di Blasio is just as much the Mayor of Eric Garner as he is of the cops.
    Gaius, you are focusing on one video of three that was taken by Garner's friend that doesn't show the cops first approaching him for the arrest. So now you assume that these cops were just harassing a black man with no just cause even though the lieutenant, a black female was there during the arrest. You also fail to include it was minority store owners in the area that called the police over Garner's illegal activity in front of their place of business. This has nothing to do with race.

    The new harsher laws/fines involving selling any untaxed cigarettes went into effect this year. You get arrested and take a trip downtown. The police officers are under orders to enforce the laws.

    But hey let's make it racist instead of addressing excessive taxation on cigarettes which has created the black market.

    Let's get Holder, de Blasio, Obama, and Sharpton making it about race.

    And just for you here is a video of a protest group over this racially charged case marching down the streets of NYC. Listen to what they are chanting.

    "What do we want?" "Dead Cops!"


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