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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

  1. #2721
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Prove intent.
    Manslaughter does not require intent.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Manslaughter does not require intent.
    Well that's just great ain't it...keep on going after cops, and before long there won't be anyone stupid enough to be one.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Prove intent.
    Violation of established police procedure would seem sufficient "intent" for me to vote to take the case to trial. As to whether the GJ knew of that (perhaps they were "accidentally" not made aware of it) is another question. The problem appears to be the close working relationship of prosecutors (the only ones presenting any evidence to the GJ) and police officers - they are both dependent upon cooperation with each other and are both paid by the same boss.

    If a police officer can be held personally criminally responsible for their on the job actions then it stands to reason that a prosecutor could be as well. It should be grounds to charge the prosecutor with criminal misconduct (accessory after the fact?) if they withheld proper police procedure violations from the GJ. Of course, the same could be said of each of the fellow officers, on the scene or even viewing the video later, that made no effort to stop the use of a chokehold or to even ensure that the prosecutor was made aware of it.

    It is said that a prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich yet very few blue ham sandwiches ever get indicted. Perhaps it is time to have a real review of why so many "questionable" police actions are never even questioned by those that can bring ANYONE to trial by simply skipping the GJ all together as in the Zimmerman case.

    The most questionable action in this case is the moronic idea that placing a 200% tax on state/local cigarettes would not be apt to "create crime" by offering anyone a means of more than doubling their money by simply avoiding it. Wasn't the original tea party all about violent objection to ridiculous taxation?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well that's just great ain't it...keep on going after cops, and before long there won't be anyone stupid enough to be one.
    More than likely there would just be far fewer stupid ones.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    More than likely there would just be far fewer stupid ones.
    Well, neither one of us has a crystal ball, but I can assure you that tying cops hands in dealing with suspects is going to not only result in fewer qualified candidates becoming cops, but could lead to more officer deaths.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Somewhere back in the dim distant pages of this thread, and in others on the same topic, there was a good amount of discussion on the meaning of "homicide" and discussion about how could a death be ruled a homicide but no indictment be forthcoming. Several people, myself among them, pointed out that homicide just means to intentionally take a life with no implication as to whether there was any wrong doing.

    While that's true for the dictionary definition it is not true under NY Law. NY Penal Law 125:




    That means 2 things.

    1. The ME made a determination that a crime was committed and that Garner's death was not a blameless accident.
    2. Given that criminally negligent homicide falls under the homicide defintion in NY the DA should have presented it.

    The only way Panteleo can walk without an indictment is because there's confusion as to who caused the death, not really likely given the video, or because the DA failed to charge criminally negligent homicide. There is no excuse for that, especially given the statutory definition of homicide.

    In short the DA threw the case. I sorely hope the Staten Island voters make him unemployed next chance they get.
    How the DA threw the case was by leaving off lesser charges of aggravated assault, reckless endangerment and official oppression.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well that's just great ain't it...keep on going after cops, and before long there won't be anyone stupid enough to be one.
    Lots and lots of people want to be cops.

  8. #2728
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    As I've said repeatedly intent isn't a question the GJ looks at. The statute essentially takes intent off the table.

    Have you read the statute? Can you offer reasonable alternative interpretation?
    Why a Medical Examiner Called Eric Garner's Death a 'Homicide'

    But “homicide” in this context doesn’t mean what you think. It’s one of five categories medical examiners use to label causes of death and it indicates that “someone’s intentional actions led to the death of another person,” says Gregory G. Davis, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners. The other four labels are suicide, accident, natural, and undetermined, Davis says."

    The ME's declaration of Homicide has zero impact or meaning. The Prosecutor would not base any decisions to present and would not present the case based on the descriptor 'homicide'. It is a category. A label. Nothing else. It is meaningless.

    There IS NO application of NY Penal law in this case. There is no charge, no trial, and certainly no conviction.

  9. #2729
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Why a Medical Examiner Called Eric Garner's Death a 'Homicide'

    But “homicide” in this context doesn’t mean what you think. It’s one of five categories medical examiners use to label causes of death and it indicates that “someone’s intentional actions led to the death of another person,” says Gregory G. Davis, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners. The other four labels are suicide, accident, natural, and undetermined, Davis says."

    The ME's declaration of Homicide has zero impact or meaning. The Prosecutor would not base any decisions to present and would not present the case based on the descriptor 'homicide'. It is a category. A label. Nothing else. It is meaningless.

    There IS NO application of NY Penal law in this case. There is no charge, no trial, and certainly no conviction.
    I understand what you're saying but why would the medical definition of a term trump the legal definition in a legal setting? That frankly doesn't make any sense to me. Penal law is what matters in courtrooms.

    I haven't said that the prosecutor bases his decision on the category on the death certificate. What I've said is that the Grand Jury can't not-indict because they believe no crime was committed because under penal law - which matters in a courtroom - the grand jury has to assume a homicide is crime. The prosecutor certainly has the discretion to decide against bringing a case against a specific individual for whatever reason he wants.

    You might find this illuminating reading Eric Garner’s Homicide Solved | Simple Justice. Greenfield is a respected NYC criminal defense attorney who does this stuff for a living and on who's writings I'm basing my opinion. In the comments he addresses the legal vs medical distinction.
    Last edited by Gaius46; 12-13-14 at 10:52 AM.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well that's just great ain't it...keep on going after cops, and before long there won't be anyone stupid enough to be one.
    Nice. In order to have cops, we have to allow them to take down and kill people guilty of misdemeanors.

    I disagree. I think we can have police protection from violent felons without living in a police state.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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