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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    That is the legal definition of homicide in the State of New York. Are you arguing that it isn't or that somehow it can be interpreted otherwise?

    Like it or not under the laws of New York State the ME gets to make a determination as to whether a crime was committed or not.
    A coroner description of homicide does NOT imply criminal action. You dont REALLY believe that, do you?

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    A coroner description of homicide does NOT imply criminal action. You dont REALLY believe that, do you?
    It does as far the GJ is concerned.

    His determination is not binding at trial but for purposes of a grand jury proceeding it is. In other words the trial jury can decide a crime wasn't committed, the grand jury can't. The only thing they get to decide is whether there's enough evidence to put the guy in front of them on trial for the crime that the ME has established exists and continues to exist until a trial jury says otherwise.

    Given that and the video it is unfathomable how they failed to return an indictment.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    It does as far the GJ is concerned.

    His determination is not binding at trial but for purposes of a grand jury proceeding it is. In other words the trial jury can decide a crime wasn't committed, the grand jury can't. The only thing they get to decide is whether there's enough evidence to put the guy in front of them on trial for the crime that the ME has established exists and continues to exist until a trial jury says otherwise.

    Given that and the video it is unfathomable how they failed to return an indictment.
    No it doesnt...not even close.

    The coroner does not pronounce a judgment in any way shape or form regarding crime or criminal intent.

    Quick...let your little fingers access Google, then come back and explain how that isnt what you REALLY meant.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    No it doesnt...not even close.

    The coroner does not pronounce a judgment in any way shape or form regarding crime or criminal intent.

    Quick...let your little fingers access Google, then come back and explain how that isnt what you REALLY meant.
    How about you save me the time, trouble and confusion and point to evidence otherwise that is applicable to New York. I've already given you chapter and verse from NY Penal Law.

    Remember I am talking about a grand jury proceeding only. Not a trial. A trial jury can decide the ME was wrong or that the homicide was justifiable. The GJ sole task is to decide whether the guy did what they said he did.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    How about you save me the time, trouble and confusion and point to evidence otherwise that is applicable to New York. I've already given you chapter and verse from NY Penal Law.

    Remember I am talking about a grand jury proceeding only. Not a trial. A trial jury can decide the ME was wrong or that the homicide was justifiable. The GJ sole task is to decide whether the guy did what they said he did.
    Did you rush to Google yet? Did you find the 5 possible declarative cause of death options available to coroners in New York, none of which have anything to do with criminal or potential criminal declarations?

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Did you rush to Google yet? Did you find the 5 possible declarative cause of death options available to coroners in New York, none of which have anything to do with criminal or potential criminal declarations?
    Nope. They are irrelevant (and I know what they say in any event). What's relevant is NY Penal Law which very clearly states that the circumstances for criminality exist with any homicide.

    I'll restate my point:

    The Grand Jury doesn't get to decide whether a homicide is justifiable or not. The Grand Jury doesn't get to decide whether a crime was committed or not. That's for the trial court.

    By calling it a homicide under NY law the circumstances for criminality exist. Once the GJ sees the word homicide on the death certificate the only question for the GJ is whether there is sufficient evidence that the accused did the act or not. If there's sufficient evidence that he did the act then they're supposed to indict.

    The trial court is the place where they'd sort out whether it was justified or whether the ME got the facts wrong and it really was an accident or natural causes or suicide.

    Now please rebut that and stop with the 5 causes of death because they are completely irrelevant at this point in the discussion. Legally a homicide implies a crime until a trial court says otherwise.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Nope. They are irrelevant (and I know what they say in any event). What's relevant is NY Penal Law which very clearly states that the circumstances for criminality exist with any homicide.

    I'll restate my point:

    The Grand Jury doesn't get to decide whether a homicide is justifiable or not. The Grand Jury doesn't get to decide whether a crime was committed or not. That's for the trial court.

    By calling it a homicide under NY law the circumstances for criminality exist. Once the GJ sees the word homicide on the death certificate the only question for the GJ is whether there is sufficient evidence that the accused did the act or not. If there's sufficient evidence that he did the act then they're supposed to indict.

    The trial court is the place where they'd sort out whether it was justified or whether the ME got the facts wrong and it really was an accident or natural causes or suicide.

    Now please rebut that and stop with the 5 causes of death because they are completely irrelevant at this point in the discussion. Legally a homicide implies a crime until a trial court says otherwise.
    You are lost. You are trying to apply your vast knowledge from what you watched on Law and Order to the word Homicide. It will never work. It wont work because you are wrong. Even staying at a Holiday Inn Express wont help you. Google it. Learn it. Understand it. The coroners category has zero to do with crime, criminality, intent, or if something should or shouldnt be referred to a grand jury.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    You are lost. You are trying to apply your vast knowledge from what you watched on Law and Order to the word Homicide. It will never work. It wont work because you are wrong. Even staying at a Holiday Inn Express wont help you. Google it. Learn it. Understand it. The coroners category has zero to do with crime, criminality, intent, or if something should or shouldnt be referred to a grand jury.
    Then kindly explain the meaning of NY Penal Law 125.00 which legally defines the word homicide for purpose of criminal law in New York State. Kindly explain how that is not the operative definition of the word for legal purposes in New York.

    For you to rebut me you need to first and foremost prove my interpretation is incorrect. Then you'd need to describe a grand jury system that actually looks at defenses - which ours doesn't since, well the defense isn't there. Ours looks at what the prosecutors facts are and decides whether he has enough to warrant going forward.

    The prosecutor decides whether something can be referred to a grand jury. If the coroner says "accident" nothing happens. If the coroner says homicide and prosecutor thinks he can prove and and prove criminality then he goes to the GJ. But what you refuse, utterly and completely refuse to understand is that the GJ isn't suppose to look at defenses.

    And I don't watch law and order. Though I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last week.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Then kindly explain the meaning of NY Penal Law 125.00 which legally defines the word homicide for purpose of criminal law in New York State. Kindly explain how that is not the operative definition of the word for legal purposes in New York.

    For you to rebut me you need to first and foremost prove my interpretation is incorrect. Then you'd need to describe a grand jury system that actually looks at defenses - which ours doesn't since, well the defense isn't there. Ours looks at what the prosecutors facts are and decides whether he has enough to warrant going forward.

    The prosecutor decides whether something can be referred to a grand jury. If the coroner says "accident" nothing happens. If the coroner says homicide and prosecutor thinks he can prove and and prove criminality then he goes to the GJ. But what you refuse, utterly and completely refuse to understand is that the GJ isn't suppose to look at defenses.

    And I don't watch law and order. Though I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last week.
    I am giving you LOTS of opportunities to dig your own hole. I have even given you the opportunity to NOT. You REALLY want to cling to your notion that a coroner use of the word 'homicide' is declarative of criminal intent IE the penal code?

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I am giving you LOTS of opportunities to dig your own hole. I have even given you the opportunity to NOT. You REALLY want to cling to your notion that a coroner use of the word 'homicide' is declarative of criminal intent IE the penal code?
    As I've said repeatedly intent isn't a question the GJ looks at. The statute essentially takes intent off the table.

    Have you read the statute? Can you offer reasonable alternative interpretation?
    Last edited by Gaius46; 12-12-14 at 09:13 PM.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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