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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    zyph, the whole incident including the chokehold put stress on an already stressed heart.
    Now that makes sense, and as I tried to research more that seems to be ultimately what it was. Which just confused me because that was very different than the impression I was getting most of the time when I was paying just off-handed attention to this issue, which seemed to imply that the guy died while in a choke hold.

    Being taken down, choked, piled on top of by 4 men, having your head smashed to the ground....all combined with an individual with health issues...causing significant stress on the heart leading to cardiac arrest maks a ton of sense.

    A non-violent man who had a history of non-violent misdemeanors was killed by violence put upon him by some jock cops, that induced his heart attack.
    Agree completely here. Like I said, at the very least I think the cop was in the wrong, and based on what I've seen/read of this I'd say wrong enough to be worthy of a criminal trial to see if there was criminal wrong doing on his part. And ABSOLUTELY agree that it's ridiculous it even got to that point over something as simple as selling a cigerette on the street.

    However, having seen more info, I can at least understand how a jury may've not chose to go with an indictment. I still don't think that's the right choice, but I simply can see some minor avenues that I think could lead a person to possibly go the direction the GJ went...even if I don't think I would have gone that direction based on the info I've seen and read.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Now that makes sense, and as I tried to research more that seems to be ultimately what it was. Which just confused me because that was very different than the impression I was getting most of the time when I was paying just off-handed attention to this issue, which seemed to imply that the guy died while in a choke hold.

    Being taken down, choked, piled on top of by 4 men, having your head smashed to the ground....all combined with an individual with health issues...causing significant stress on the heart leading to cardiac arrest maks a ton of sense.



    Agree completely here. Like I said, at the very least I think the cop was in the wrong, and based on what I've seen/read of this I'd say wrong enough to be worthy of a criminal trial to see if there was criminal wrong doing on his part. And ABSOLUTELY agree that it's ridiculous it even got to that point over something as simple as selling a cigerette on the street.

    However, having seen more info, I can at least understand how a jury may've not chose to go with an indictment. I still don't think that's the right choice, but I simply can see some minor avenues that I think could lead a person to possibly go the direction the GJ went...even if I don't think I would have gone that direction based on the info I've seen and read.



    I think the grand jury failed to indict for numerous reasons, one, we are conditioned that any scoffing is "resiting arrest", and I bet that prosecuter wasn't bringing his "A" game to that grand jury.


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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    It is indeed tragic. It did not have to happen. No one is saying it was murder, but it was homicide. It could have been prevented, very easily. That it wasn't is a lesson to be learned. It's much like someone dying in a car accident. Was it murder? No, but it was certainly the result of someone's mistake. Was it a crime? probably not, but it was certainly something that should be prevented.

    and brushing this incident of as, "Oh, well, it was just some fat guy selling cigarettes on the street. If he was killed as the result of an arrest gone bad, then that's just how things are," is not the way to go about it.
    i am not making light of the situation

    could things have gone differently? sure

    like i said i think there is plenty of blame to go around......from the city council/mayor who wanted more emphasis placed on arresting/stopping these crimes

    to the officers who might have used other tactics confronting the subject.....why werent they equipped with tasers? or why didnt they use pepper spray to subdue him?

    to the subject himself who apparently was tired of being hassled by cops for trying to make a few bucks......and instead of just peacefully going along, he decided he wanted to make a stand

    plenty of blame to go around.......and the city will end up paying some settlement to the widow and his kids

    tragic, stupid, and unnecessary death.......but nothing criminal.......and that is the part too many are having a hard time dealing with
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    i am not making light of the situation

    could things have gone differently? sure

    like i said i think there is plenty of blame to go around......from the city council/mayor who wanted more emphasis placed on arresting/stopping these crimes

    to the officers who might have used other tactics confronting the subject.....why werent they equipped with tasers? or why didnt they use pepper spray to subdue him?

    to the subject himself who apparently was tired of being hassled by cops for trying to make a few bucks......and instead of just peacefully going along, he decided he wanted to make a stand

    plenty of blame to go around.......and the city will end up paying some settlement to the widow and his kids

    tragic, stupid, and unnecessary death.......but nothing criminal.......and that is the part too many are having a hard time dealing with
    Why is there a need to subdue him? He isnt harming anyone or being threatening. The officers can inform him he is under arrest. And then work on getting cuffs on him standing up unless he proves to be trying to hurt someone. Its not illegal to be grumpy. All he did was say "leave me alone" and "im tired of this".

    There is no need to ride him like a bull, or tackle him, or practice your martial arts moves on him, or try to punk him, or try to overwelm him with blitz tactics. Hes just some guy who happens to be big.

    Now if that big son of a bitch starting swinging punches at cop faces I could see the desperation to subdue him.

    The cops put themselves in danger by suprise attacking him the way they did. (although Garner proved to be a gentleman and never once tried to hurt any of they even as they wolf-packed him). And the cops put Garner in danger by assaulting him in a provoking manner.

    I want to live in a world where if a cop sees another cop breaking a law all the cops dogpile the cop, and instead use diplomacy and people skills with what Mr. White Collar would call "the scum of society". Cops that rather pull their gun on a cop, that is threatening someone and blow the rogue cop away, than hurt an innocent.

    Eventually all police WILL be 100% monitored and the more these events are captured the more public will put cops in a place they need to be.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Why is there a need to subdue him? He isnt harming anyone or being threatening. The officers can inform him he is under arrest. And then work on getting cuffs on him standing up unless he proves to be trying to hurt someone. Its not illegal to be grumpy. All he did was say "leave me alone" and "im tired of this".

    There is no need to ride him like a bull, or tackle him, or practice your martial arts moves on him, or try to punk him, or try to overwelm him with blitz tactics. Hes just some guy who happens to be big.

    Now if that big son of a bitch starting swinging punches at cop faces I could see the desperation to subdue him.

    The cops put themselves in danger by suprise attacking him the way they did. (although Garner proved to be a gentleman and never once tried to hurt any of they even as they wolf-packed him). And the cops put Garner in danger by assaulting him in a provoking manner.

    I want to live in a world where if a cop sees another cop breaking a law all the cops dogpile the cop, and instead use diplomacy and people skills with what Mr. White Collar would call "the scum of society". Cops that rather pull their gun on a cop, that is threatening someone and blow the rogue cop away, than hurt an innocent.

    Eventually all police WILL be 100% monitored and the more these events are captured the more public will put cops in a place they need to be.

    the question is what could he have done....the first rule of law enforcement is to go home safe at the end of your shift

    so....with safety in mind, subdual is what every law enforcement officer is TRAINED to do

    they cant hurt you.....you "usually" dont hurt them with subdual tactics

    calmer heads prevail, and everyone eventually goes home safely

    it didnt work here.....but that is the training that every cop gets

    and even people without weapons can be very dangerous.....especially ones the size of Mr Garner

    tasers, pepper spray, batons.....all used to subdue subjects

    and yes....if you are a perp and dont acquiesce immediately, you too will know what subdual means

    i have zero issue with cops using these techniques.......saves lives on both sides
    “Most of the shadows of this life are caused by standing in one's own sunshine.”

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    So then why did the Grand Jury members disagree? Has there been anything put out yet on the trial?
    I don't know. I wasn't part of the review and the records remain sealed.

    There won't be a trial based on the grand jury's outcome.

    There should be, but I seriously doubt there will be. Garner's widow will have to try and get restitution through the civil court process.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 12-08-14 at 05:27 PM.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    the DA has the ability to release the GJ testimony

    it would probably clear up a lot of the issues

    whether or not he will is entirely different matter

    this article gave a little information

    Extremely ‘Specific’ Information About Garner Grand Jury Proceedings Released
    By Caroline Bankoff

    Soon after the world learned that Daniel Pantaleo wouldn't be charged with Eric Garner's death, Staten Island District Attorney Daniel Donovan announced that he had asked for the public release of "specific information in connection" with the grand jury's investigation. On Thursday, the Supreme Court judge who oversaw the Garner case, Stephen Rooney, granted Donovan's request, but those hoping for a Ferguson-esque document dump are going to be pretty disappointed.

    Donovan didn't apply for the release of witness testimony, transcripts, or details of the evidence presented to the jurors. So, basically, he didn't ask for anything that would shed light on why the grand jury decided not to indict despite what everyone saw in the video of Pantaleo putting Garner in a chokehold. A DNAinfo source predicted that the material "at best provide a table of contents," and they were pretty much right.

    Here's what we learned from the four-page disclosure provided by Judge Rooney:

    The grand jury was in session for nine weeks.
    The grand jury heard from 50 witnesses, 22 of whom were civilians. The others were cops, EMTs, and doctors.
    60 items were entered into evidence. They included four videos, some medical records, autopsy photos, photos from the scene, and information on NYPD policy, procedures, and training.
    The grand jury was instructed on "relevant principles of law" regarding an officer's right to use force.
    In a statement, Donovan said, "I will have no further comment in connection with the grand jury proceedings relating to the matter of the investigation into the death of Eric Garner."

    Meanwhile, the New York Times talked to Pantaleo's attorney about what his client said during his two hours of testimony in late November:

    The officer tackled some of the most damaging evidence head-on. He acknowledged that he heard Mr. Garner saying, “I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe,” and insisted that he tried to disengage as quickly as he could, according to his lawyer, Stuart London. At the same time, Mr. Garner’s ability to speak, the officer testified, suggested that he, in fact, could breathe.

    “He wanted to get across to the grand jury that it was never his intention to injure or harm anyone,” Mr. London said. “He was really just describing how he was attempting to arrest someone.”

    According to London, Pantaleo testified that he had not been trying to put Garner in a chokehold. Instead, he claimed that he employed a Police Academy move meant to "tip the person so they lose their balance and go to the ground." However:

    As the struggle continued, one of Officer Pantaleo’s arms moved around Mr. Garner’s neck. Officer Pantaleo told the grand jury that he became fearful as he found himself sandwiched between a much larger man and a storefront window.

    “He testified that the glass buckled while Garner was up against him and he was against the glass,” Mr. London said. “He was concerned that both he and Garner would go through that glass.”

    "That’s why [Pantaleo] attempted to get off [Garner] as quick as he could. He thought that once E.M.T. arrived, everything would be O.K," explained London. London added that Pantaleo was aware that he was being filmed but wasn't concerned because, "He knew he was committing no misconduct so it didn’t bother him."

    Perhaps someone else who was in the courtroom will decide to leak more information in the future. But, for now, this is all we've got.

    Information About Garner Grand Jury Released -- NYMag
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    the question is what could he have done....the first rule of law enforcement is to go home safe at the end of your shift

    so....with safety in mind, subdual is what every law enforcement officer is TRAINED to do

    they cant hurt you.....you "usually" dont hurt them with subdual tactics

    calmer heads prevail, and everyone eventually goes home safely

    it didnt work here.....but that is the training that every cop gets

    and even people without weapons can be very dangerous.....especially ones the size of Mr Garner

    tasers, pepper spray, batons.....all used to subdue subjects

    and yes....if you are a perp and dont acquiesce immediately, you too will know what subdual means

    i have zero issue with cops using these techniques.......saves lives on both sides
    Sounds like some schoolyard bully ****. Submit or else pain.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    the DA has the ability to release the GJ testimony

    it would probably clear up a lot of the issues
    No, it won't. Because most people have no idea how grand juries work, or why such extensive presentations of evidence are actually an example of the prosecutor manipulating the process.

    Normally, the only purpose of a grand jury is to ensure there's enough evidence to warrant a trial. The prosecutor usually only presents a handful of evidence, enough to convince enough grand jurors to indict. In most cases, a grand jury will spend less than a day on its deliberations.

    However, a GJ proceeding is NOT a trial. There's no cross-examination, no one to challenge the witnesses, no way to question the evidence. It's all one-sided, with the prosecutor in charge. If the prosecutor doesn't want the cop to be indicted, he can find ways to discredit the evidence, with no one advocating for it, and allow the accused officer to speak without being cross-examined.

    In addition, there are reports that the prosecutor required the jury to either indict for murder, or nothing at all. The GJ was apparently not given the option to indict for lesser charges. From the same source you cited, no less..... Garner Grand Jury Didn?t Consider Lesser Charges -- NYMag

    The purpose of a grand jury is not to decide guilt or innocence. It's much simpler than that. And when a grand jury proceeding takes 9 weeks and 50 witnesses -- when in most cases it takes a day -- it doesn't take much to recognize that the prosecutor is up to something. And no release of grand jury transcripts will reveal what.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Sounds like some schoolyard bully ****. Submit or else pain.
    How about "don't break the law and you won't have to worry about a confrontation with the police"?
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