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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Its almost as if goerge lopez is some sort of satirical prophet for this event with his characterizations.

    Last edited by dirtpoorchris; 12-06-14 at 11:56 PM.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    The only problem I have with this is... that police officers are not medical experts. Are they suppose to ask a criminal if they have any medical issues before they take them down? How many do you think would tell the truth anyway?
    If a subject dies while being choked, the person doing the choking killed him. It appears, by watching the video of the guy lying motionless on the sidewalk, that may have been the case.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Finally saw the video...

    It...it made no sense to me. It only makes sense if the one I watched was some how out of sync with the video and audio.

    I see cop in a shirt with "99" on it get the guy in a choke hold and bring him to the ground.

    On the ground I hear Garner saying "I can't breath" (which is an indication he CAN breath, but definitely sounds like his breathing intake is significantly impaired)

    I see number 99 now STANDING UP, with both hands on the guys head, as the guy is saying the above statement.

    I haven't been following this really closely, but I was under the impression from everything I heard people say that the guy was dropped unconscious and eventually died from a choke hold, but he was clearly still conscious and breathing after the choke had been released.

    Was the issue actually that the trachea was significantly damaged, impairing his ability to significantly intake breath and that compounded with his asthma led to eventual unconsciousness and death? Did the autopsy show damage to the trachea or some other portion of the body relevant to the intake of breath? Because right now I"m exceedingly confused.

    Damage to the trachea is about the only thing that would make sense. That + four people putting significant pressure on the guy on the ground + asthma + being out of shape would explain the eventual unconsciousness and death. But I just kept getting the impression he actually went unconscious and died while IN the choke. But I may just have misunderstood having not followed this closely.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    The only problem I have with this is... that police officers are not medical experts. Are they suppose to ask a criminal if they have any medical issues before they take them down? How many do you think would tell the truth anyway?
    Here would be my general take on that...

    1) Are there requirements in terms of how/when an officer can apply a hold such as that onto a person?

    2) Were those requirements met when he did the hold?

    3) Would an officer who used a taser on an individual in a situation where regulation did not allow for it to be used, and it resulted in the individuals death due to health issues that the individual was afflicted with, would that officer be potentially liable for manslaughter?

    If the answer is "yes" to the first and third, and "no" to the second, then I don't see any reason to treat a choke hold any differently.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Finally saw the video...

    It...it made no sense to me. It only makes sense if the one I watched was some how out of sync with the video and audio.

    I see cop in a shirt with "99" on it get the guy in a choke hold and bring him to the ground.

    On the ground I hear Garner saying "I can't breath" (which is an indication he CAN breath, but definitely sounds like his breathing intake is significantly impaired)

    I see number 99 now STANDING UP, with both hands on the guys head, as the guy is saying the above statement.

    I haven't been following this really closely, but I was under the impression from everything I heard people say that the guy was dropped unconscious and eventually died from a choke hold, but he was clearly still conscious and breathing after the choke had been released.

    Was the issue actually that the trachea was significantly damaged, impairing his ability to significantly intake breath and that compounded with his asthma led to eventual unconsciousness and death? Did the autopsy show damage to the trachea or some other portion of the body relevant to the intake of breath? Because right now I"m exceedingly confused.

    Damage to the trachea is about the only thing that would make sense. That + four people putting significant pressure on the guy on the ground + asthma + being out of shape would explain the eventual unconsciousness and death. But I just kept getting the impression he actually went unconscious and died while IN the choke. But I may just have misunderstood having not followed this closely.
    How a chokehold works has been posted a number of times. Here's a short version.

    A chockhold does NOT cut off breathing to the lungs. It significantly reduces blood flow to the brain (but not entirely). The brain for its size uses more oxygen (by far) than any other organ - and is most quickly damaged (permanently) without oxygen.

    It is within our DNA/design that if blood flow (meaning oxygen flow) to the brain is reduced the brain will immediately start shutting down other organs and the rest of the body. It will turn down muscles (which use a lot of oxygen) - which is why the person goes limp. But the lungs and heart also are muscles. So the heart rate is dramatically cut as is breathing.

    Adding he was on his stomach - so his own weight making breathing difficult - and someone on his back too - the result would be his "I can't breathe, I can't breathe." NOT because he couldn't get air to his lungs, but because his brain was turning off his lungs and heart, plus the weight strain. With his breathing cut as much as 75% and heart pumping 1/4th as much blood (oxygen), he literally was coming to be unable to breath.

    Breathing was becoming difficult to impossible because his brain was saving it self. Muscles can go a quarter hour or more with zero oxygen. The heart can go quite a while too and still be revived, but the brain can't.

    Now here is what killed him - exactly. When the officer released his hold and blood flow restored? His brain then would tell the heart and lungs to go into hyper-drive to get that oxygen. His blood pressure and heart rate would have gone off the charts - and that's why he had a heart attack. The effect of the release would have been similar to sticking a taser in the center of his heart. An comparison is sometimes and old shopkeeper will chase after a shoplifter and drop dead of a heart attack as his heart is just too weak.

    It is unfortunate EMS didn't try to do CPR because in that situation it likely would have saved him. As an analogy, his heart had a "charley horse" and froze up. If it had manually been pumped (CPS) it likely would have relaxed and started going again.

    Anyway, when people say he couldn't be unable to breathe because he could speak that simply isn't how it works. The chocking was of blood to his brain, not air to his lungs, and for this his brain was shutting down his heart and lungs to save the brain. The chockhold in this way also has the brain shut down the person's muscles (why the person quickly can't struggle - why police used to like it much - until it known it was killing people), but that also is why it is so dangerous - particularly to children, older folks, overweight people and people in poor physical condition.

    That also is why it has been banned to law enforcement for quite some time. It will kill people with health weakness or issues - regardless of intentions. It also will if held too long and until advances in autopsies was a way to murder someone making it look like heart attack. For his weight, age and overall size, plus on his chest with someone on his back, his death if put into a chockhold all but a certainty.

    (I guess this wasn't so short, but his able to speak therefore was not being "chocked" is misinformation about this - though out of lack of knowledge).
    Last edited by joko104; 12-07-14 at 01:31 AM.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903]

    What so frustrated me about these discussions is that everyone is so hung up on love-or-hate police, race and "was it murder" - that no other topics and issues are even discussable.

    For example, I don't see race having ANYTHING to do with it. And for potential criminal charges they would be lesser such as "reckless endangerment," "official oppression" and "assault," not just manslaughter/murder or nothing.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Here would be my general take on that...

    1) Are there requirements in terms of how/when an officer can apply a hold such as that onto a person?

    2) Were those requirements met when he did the hold?

    3) Would an officer who used a taser on an individual in a situation where regulation did not allow for it to be used, and it resulted in the individuals death due to health issues that the individual was afflicted with, would that officer be potentially liable for manslaughter?

    If the answer is "yes" to the first and third, and "no" to the second, then I don't see any reason to treat a choke hold any differently.
    The NYPD banned chockholds by their officers in 1993.
    Kelly Bans Choke Holds By Officers - NYTimes.com


    At a police promotion ceremony at One Police Plaza, Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly characterized the ban not as a new policy but as clarification of a 1985 order. That order said that "choke holds, which are potentially lethal and unnecessary, will not be routinely used." An exception was when an officer's life was in danger and the choke hold was the "least dangerous alternative method of restraint." The new policy allows no exceptions.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    How a chokehold works has been posted a number of times. Here's a short version.
    I know how a chokehold works (actually, chokeHOLDS, there's two distinct types), and was one of those that posted such)

    A chockhold does NOT cut off breathing to the lungs.
    Actually, some forms of choke holds (air chokes) absolutely CAN cut off breathing to the lungs, via constricting and/or damaging essential air pathways like the trachea, leading to asphyxia. These type of chokes do not directly inhibit blood flow to the brain.

    It significantly reduces blood flow to the brain (but not entirely).
    A specific category of chokes (not the one applied in this case), blood chokes, succeed via this manner of essentially strangulation.

    Breathing was becoming difficult to impossible because his brain was saving it self.
    If it as "starving itself" because of damage to his trachea or other air pathway that was unable to pull in the necessary oxygen, due to the affects of the choke hold...this makes sense. Which is why I as asking if that's what the autopsy showed.

    Now here is what killed him - exactly. When the officer released his hold and blood flow restored? His brain then would tell the heart and lungs to go into hyper-drive to get that oxygen. His blood pressure and heart rate would have gone off the charts - and that's why he had a heart attack.
    So wait, that autopsy revealed a HEART ATTACK is what killed him? That's literally the first time I've heard that in this entire thing.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Good afternoon Rocket,

    A more fulsome new headline would be "New Yorkers elect liberal/socialist as Mayor and one of his first orders is for Union Bureaucrats to crack down on Underground Economy - Mayor Claims Amnesia when instruction leads to death of supporter"
    Headlines have to be much simpler


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    It significantly reduces blood flow to the brain (but not entirely).
    Yeah, no offense but given your statements just going against everything I've ever known I decided since I had a bit of time I'd start looking into a few things myself.

    First thing I just saw (still looking) confirmed my belief that based on the style of choke being used there was no chance that this guys carotid was actually being compressed to happen.

    However, what surprised me is a doctor on CNN going over the report saying it suggested that the jugular vein was compressed, which I really didn't expect given the look of that choke. This keeps the deoxygenated blood from leaving the brain, not stopping the brain from getting blood.

    The CNN report also seemed to go along with my thought process that the significant amount of individuals on his back, combined with him being stuck against the ground, and his head placed as it was, likely caused significant issues with regards to the intake of air which contributed to the death. Which again, makes more sense than what I was originally hearing from people which gave the impression that he went unconscious and died while in the choke hold.

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