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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

  1. #2201
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Funny how you can read something and not understand it. Perhaps it would help you if it were quoted as it was written in the linked material... I bolded the sentence you snipped in your mind, all you saw was "volitional act" you didn't stick around for the qualifiers. You also seemed to skip over an important "or".
    Mmmm. So I skipped the important part (despite actually reading all of the definitions in the handbook). You, in contrast, seem to have missed that the ME declared Garner's death a homicide.

    Yeesh.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    My statement is accurate. Again, from the ME's handbook http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

    Natural—‘‘due solely or nearly totally to disease and/or the aging process.’’

    Accident—‘‘there is little or no evidence that the injury or poisoning occurred with intent to harm or cause death. In essence, the fatal outcome
    was unintentional.’’

    Suicide—‘‘results from an injury or poisoning as a result of an intentional,self-inflicted act committed to do self-harm or cause the death of one’s
    self.’’

    Homicide—‘‘occurs when death results from...’’ an injury or poisoning or from ‘‘...a volitional act committed by another person to cause fear, harm, or death. Intent to cause death is a common element but is not required for classification as homicide.’’

    Could not be determined—‘‘used when the information pointing to one manner of death is no more compelling than one or more other competing manners of death when all available information is considered.’’

    Pending investigation—used when determination of manner depends on further information.



    The ME did not declared Garner's death a homicide, not an accident. And yet again, I am not saying any of the officers actually wanted to kill Garner. It's that they made a deliberate choice to restrain Garner, and that action caused his death.

    Do you really not understand this yet?
    You just posted that you know it doesn't have to be deliberate or intentional to be classified as being a homicide. A "deliberate choice to restrain" doesn't imply a "deliberate or intentional action to result in a homicide". For the love of God, stop.
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  3. #2203
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Okay, fine, they're not. I never claimed they were. I'm asking you whether a person hired by the medical examiner's office to relate the medical examiner's findings should be trusted.



    Your comparisons are pretty weak. A medical examiner does not need to put a spin on his findings because his job is not dependent on public opinion. Actually, correction, it is dependent on public opinion to the extent that if he's caught relating false information through a spokesperson, they're never going to be hired again. Do you realize why your comparisons don't work?

    A press secretary for the WH is hired because of its partisan nature is hired to put a positive spin on events. A PR person working for a company does the same thing. A PR person working for a medical examiner's office has no such reason. They're there to present findings and nothing else. Presenting something other than the findings would literally mean medical examiners would lose credibility. I actually WORK with marketing and PR persons and I can't believe you'd make such an oddly ridiculous comparison.

    Do you realize that not all PR people are the same and some are hired to shield the people they represent? That's what the PR person for a medical examiner does. They're hired to present the findings and ensure that people don't decide to go after the medical examiners who actually proved their guilt.
    I work with PR people too. If you do as well, you would know that a PR person summing up a 27 page report isn't an official legal statement, correct? Maybe you don't.

    Let's see the autopsy. And by the way, the ME's Office in NYC has been a mess for years...I'd like to see the autopsy itself. You all are repeating the words of a PR person.
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  4. #2204
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Mmmm. So I skipped the important part (despite actually reading all of the definitions in the handbook). You, in contrast, seem to have missed that the ME declared Garner's death a homicide.

    Yeesh.
    The naysayers are all in denial. All they have to do is watch the video to clearly see who killed whom.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Autopsy reports aren't publicly available so the chances of us ever seeing it are slim.
    His next of kin have it. They should release it.
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  6. #2206
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    So a wholly unattributed quote is authoritative... lol



    It's not publicly released... and it's not like Joko has it either. Meanwhile, the version I quoted has been consistently cited by a wide variety of sources, whereas you have... nothing.

    I mean, really. Are you genuinely going to dispute that the ME declared it a homicide?
    Well, considering Joko has been arguing your case the entire thread I thought you might see that we were going on his quote. To be fair I've seen his quote in other reporting. So, if you want to laugh, laugh at Joko.

    The version you quote with authority is not used by any but one of the sources you've posted here, and again, not by the ME or anyone who has even claimed to see the autopsy report. Hint, the PA folks generally don't get to see the unreleased autopsy reports either. They are just told what info they have to provide and make it lay person understandable.

    And no, I've not anywhere in this thread or others doubted that the ME declared it a homicide. What I have doubted are your characterization of what homicide means in this context and your insertion of bias and incorrect wording.

  7. #2207
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Which is exactly what I told you when I corrected you. You said homicide was "intentional actions".
    ...yes... intentional meaning "volitional..." as I've been trying to explain to you.

    I also EXPLICITLY typed (numerous times and right from the start) that I did NOT accuse the officers of intending to kill Garner. It is that they chose a course of actions that led to his death. He wasn't run over by a truck whose brakes failed; he did not have a cardiac arrest by sheer coincidence when an officer was nearby; he didn't kill himself; the ME didn't punt. The ME declared it a homicide.


    nobody denies that the officers were involved in the actions that resulted in his death.
    apdst did, which is why we went down this particular rabbit hole to begin with. http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064059490

    Thanks for jumping in, though. It's been a fruitful discussion.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    The naysayers are all in denial. All they have to do is watch the video to clearly see who killed whom.
    I don't think there was ever any doubt as to who the players were, was there?
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    ...yes... intentional meaning "volitional..." as I've been trying to explain to you.

    I also EXPLICITLY typed (numerous times and right from the start) that I did NOT accuse the officers of intending to kill Garner. It is that they chose a course of actions that led to his death. He wasn't run over by a truck whose brakes failed; he did not have a cardiac arrest by sheer coincidence when an officer was nearby; he didn't kill himself; the ME didn't punt. The ME declared it a homicide.



    Clownboy did, which is why we went down this particular rabbit hole to begin with. http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064059490

    Thanks for jumping in, though. It's been a fruitful discussion.
    And one more time, because you keep ignoring your own words in your links.

    Homicide does not always mean "intentional", as you claimed. The ME declaring it a homicide does not mean it was an intentional death. You have to prove intent here - did the officer intend for him to die, yes or no?
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  10. #2210
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    His next of kin have it. They should release it.
    I agree that they probably do and if they don't they can get it. Not sure what would motivate them to do so. Maybe during the civil trial though we'll probably be talking about something else and have forgotten this case by then.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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