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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Who's Eric Brown?
    Whoops, was discussing the Mike Brown case on another forum.

    And again, it doesn't make a lick of difference what or if Garner "ranted" anything. The police don't get to kill you if you yell at them. And I don't care what happened during your so called "missing part"
    I never said it did make a difference what he ranted in the video. Though I would argue that what people say to a cop does actually make a difference. You can't verbally threaten anyone. If a cop hears you threaten someone's life they are within their rights and duty to bring you under control.

    All I know is what I saw from the time police laid hands on Garner until he died. That was clearly excessive force and zero justification. And yes, i'm very much in a position to know what I'm talking about.

    I've spent years doing MMA. I've choked people out before and been choked out myself. I have a pretty good idea of how much force we're talking about and how much force you can apply... It's A LOT, like you feel like your head is going to be detached from you spine, like enough to burst blood vessels in your nose so that blood gushes down your throat kind of a lot. (it's a slightly violent sport )
    Do you believe the amount of force used in that video would kill your average sparring partner?

    So I kind of know what I'm talking about regarding personal combat. Choke holds aren't supposed to suffocate. It takes too much time and force. In fact, it's virtually impossible to suffocate someone with a choke single handedly if they're fighting back. Cut off blood and the person is out in a few seconds, suffocation takes minutes. From the time the officers first laid hands on him, Garner did NOTHING in any way shape or form to resist arrest. Nothing. He's laying on the ground clearly whimpering that he can't breathe. Do you have any idea how much self control it takes to be in that kind of situation and NOT panic and flail? Hint: it's an ungodly amount. Don't believe me, crawl under your car so that you can't move and then hold your breath until the panic sets in. Not being able to breathe + Not being able to move = mind blowing levels of panic.
    I don't doubt that you know something about MMA and submission holds. But I would have to question your understanding of submission holds with regard to police work. They aren't in a position where their opponent can tap out and get up off the mat. A police officer is literally in a potential life and death struggle where letting their opponent up is not an option. Ask a police office some time what they are trained to do when a suspect complains about their submission. Anyone can claim they can't breathe, that doesn't mean the police should just let them up.

    And yet look at the cops position. If I had been another cop at the scene I would have decked the guy that was choking him. His body position and actions do not contribute to "subduing" (as if it was needed) Gardner. Zero. Nada. Nothing.
    I doubt that. Given that Garner reared back and fell to the side that the office in back was pulling him I would say he played a roll in bringing down Garner.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Manhatten, NYC
    Hmmm... I think Frodo has rolled through there.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    *Facepalm*

    Do you think the cop used some super secret 5th level cop ninja choke that we don't know about?
    Yeah, clownboy, do you even lift, bro?
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    He was let go. had he held it, it could easily kill him, I am not sure why you are taking this tact but it doesn't help you here.
    And the choke hold on Garner was held how long, again?
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Yeah, clownboy, do you even lift, bra?
    Not since the 80s when I was trying to impress the women in my life. Since I managed to lead a non-criminal lifestyle and stay out of prison there has been no need since. I think I probably could lift a bra.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Not since the 80s when I was trying to impress the women in my life. Since I managed to lead a non-criminal lifestyle and stay out of prison there has been no need since. I think I probably could lift a bra.
    I console myself with the knowledge that I lift more off the couch every time I go to the kitchen than most people my age lift in a day!
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I'm not disputing garner was the biggest contributer to his death.


    My point is, we in this country shouldn't be putting citizens in choke holds over suspicion of selling loose cigarettes.


    Diplomacy would have been the quiver I would have chosen over my bad ass choke holds.
    They didnt put him in a choke hold over suspicion of selling cigarettes. They attempted to detain him and he pushed the police officers away. Diplomacy is wonderful. Effective with many people. Maybe even with him. But they chose to detain him and he resisted and as a result he ended up having a heart attack and dying. Tragic.
    Last edited by VanceMack; 12-05-14 at 05:01 PM.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    I console myself with the knowledge that I lift more off the couch every time I go to the kitchen than most people my age lift in a day!
    No kidding, lifting is one of the things we have grandchildren for.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Whoops, was discussing the Mike Brown case on another forum.



    I never said it did make a difference what he ranted in the video. Though I would argue that what people say to a cop does actually make a difference. You can't verbally threaten anyone. If a cop hears you threaten someone's life they are within their rights and duty to bring you under control.



    Do you believe the amount of force used in that video would kill your average sparring partner?



    I don't doubt that you know something about MMA and submission holds. But I would have to question your understanding of submission holds with regard to police work. They aren't in a position where their opponent can tap out and get up off the mat. A police officer is literally in a potential life and death struggle where letting their opponent up is not an option. Ask a police office some time what they are trained to do when a suspect complains about their submission. Anyone can claim they can't breathe, that doesn't mean the police should just let them up.



    I doubt that. Given that Garner reared back and fell to the side that the office in back was pulling him I would say he played a roll in bringing down Garner.
    Yes, the amount of force could have killed a sparing partner. You don't leave a choke after someone goes limp unless you're trying to kill them.

    Also, Garner wasn't killed by anything that happened on his feet. He could still breathe when he hit the ground, you can't say that you can't breathe unless you can breath just a little bit.... Think about what that means for his suffocation....

    And you're right, MMA is not like police work. The people who do it are FAR more experienced and dangerous. Fighting is not something that anyone is naturally good at. It takes a ton of training to learn to suppress the natural responses which tend toward compliance and submission. Like... i know this hurts now but I can beat it if I fight back....And it's actually much easier to subdue someone than to make someone tap out, especially when you have backup.
    Last edited by Mithros; 12-05-14 at 04:54 PM.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Whoops, was discussing the Mike Brown case on another forum.



    I never said it did make a difference what he ranted in the video. Though I would argue that what people say to a cop does actually make a difference. You can't verbally threaten anyone. If a cop hears you threaten someone's life they are within their rights and duty to bring you under control.



    Do you believe the amount of force used in that video would kill your average sparring partner?



    I don't doubt that you know something about MMA and submission holds. But I would have to question your understanding of submission holds with regard to police work. They aren't in a position where their opponent can tap out and get up off the mat. A police officer is literally in a potential life and death struggle where letting their opponent up is not an option. Ask a police office some time what they are trained to do when a suspect complains about their submission. Anyone can claim they can't breathe, that doesn't mean the police should just let them up.



    I doubt that. Given that Garner reared back and fell to the side that the office in back was pulling him I would say he played a roll in bringing down Garner.
    why are they required to force the guy to lay on the ground like a dog. All they really need to do is get the arms cuffed. No matter how long that takes. If someone is using lethal force against a cop thats another matter.
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