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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    ....Any claim that Garner did nothing to warrant arrest is unfounded because the public simply doesn't have that information, at least not from that video.
    The issue isn't whether there was a reason to detain him.

    The issue is that the officers used excessive force, including a choke hold banned precisely to avoid this kind of outcome, to detain Garner; and that the officer was given a free pass by the criminal justice system.

    Yet again, the cigarette law was merely coincidental to the situation. As I posted earlier, on Nov 22, a 20 year old man named Donovan Lawson illegally jumped a turnstile in the NYC subway. During the arrest, Donovan was beaten on the head with a baton by an arresting officer. Even if you believe that the officer's use of force on Donovan was fully justified, the fact still remains that the type or nature of the offense is not what results in an escalation of the use of force by the officers.

    NYPD officer smashes alleged fare beater in head with baton - NY Daily News

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    The coroner disagrees with you. Assuming you're not a forensic pathologist who's autopsied the body I'll take his word for it.
    No...the coroner doesnt. In fact the coroner cited all of those problems as contributing factors.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Here are cops actually earning their paycheck against a total bad ass. Notice no choke hold. or lethal moves.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    No...the coroner doesnt. In fact the coroner cited all of those problems as contributing factors.
    Emphasis on the word contributing. The coroner called the primary causes neck and chest compression. That makes your statement factually incorrect.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Of course it isn't up to the police to make laws. They just enforce them. It's up to the lawmakers to decide what the laws are.

    Which is why the cop in question couldn't be indicted by the Grand Jury for breaking NYPD policy. People keep bringing up the policy being banned by the NYPD as if it was something they were supposed to consider. They weren't. That's a matter for the NYPD. That said, they should have considered whether this was undue force and intentional or willful disregard for human life (or something like that...not a lawyer here) which has nothing to do with the NYPD policy itself.

    Happy Friday Grant!
    Chokeholds were banned because they kill people.
    Therefore using chokeholds is willful disregard for human life.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    The issue isn't whether there was a reason to detain him.

    The issue is that the officers used excessive force, including a choke hold banned precisely to avoid this kind of outcome, to detain Garner; and that the officer was given a free pass by the criminal justice system.

    Yet again, the cigarette law was merely coincidental to the situation. As I posted earlier, on Nov 22, a 20 year old man named Donovan Lawson illegally jumped a turnstile in the NYC subway. During the arrest, Donovan was beaten on the head with a baton by an arresting officer. Even if you believe that the officer's use of force on Donovan was fully justified, the fact still remains that the type or nature of the offense is not what results in an escalation of the use of force by the officers.

    NYPD officer smashes alleged fare beater in head with baton - NY Daily News
    You may want to hold off on that "chokehold" ban business. Apparently the Chief of Police Bratton, is backing away from it.

    "Bratton also backtracked on his initial assessment that cellphone video showed Pantaleo applying a banned chokehold, telling CNN, “I’ve been around a long time in this business. What appears to be sometimes may not be what it is.”
    Police fury at mayor’s racial smear | New York Post

    And from the same article it states that "A judge granted Staten Island DA Dan Donovan’s request to unseal information about the grand jury proceedings, including that the panel heard from 50 witnesses, watched four videos and was told how much force cops can legally use in arrests."

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Can you cite the specific city or state code that makes selling loosies a crime?



    More than that. diblasio instructed the police commissioner to crack down on it. now that he has, diblasio throws him under the bus.





    He should simply walk into the hudson imo.
    The New York City Council - File #: Int 1021-2013

    Go to legislation text then start at page 8 of the text to find the prohibitions.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    He seemed to be doing all right before the cop jumped him from behind, applied a choke hold, and knocked him to the sidewalk. I doubt the family will be suing MacDonalds for wrongful death..
    It's hard to escape the video evidence.

    Going against what the police have to say is not likely to be 'self-serving'. He could just as easily have additional problems.
    The video is VERY telling. The police officer grabbed him from behind in a poorly locked in choke hold for 8 seconds until the man was on the ground. The hold was then released and he was held on the ground while being cuffed. He was not shouting "I cant breathe" while the 'choke hold' was applied but while he was on the ground. Thats far more indicative of a heart attack than anything else but what is certain is that it was NOT caused by a choke hold.

    The fallback position is "the police caused his death". That is not correct. He decided to be combative with law enforcement and that had the EXACT SAME result it will have in ANY situation involving ANYONE. Law enforcement will win. You and everyone here arguing against the police KNOW that to be fact. NONE of you are stupid enough to openly advocate for citizens to physically resist arrest and none of you are stupid enough to actually do it yourself. He did it and you KNOW he did it. Because he did it and because he was 200 pounds overweight, had an enlarged heart, hypertension, weight caused apnea, asthma, and numerous other weight related physical ailments, when he went down he had a heart attack. The cause of death was cardiac arrest which occurred while in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    The New York City Council - File #: Int 1021-2013

    Go to legislation text then start at page 8 of the text to find the prohibitions.

    Seems only to apply to retailers..... can you quote the specific text you have in mind?


    I see a reference here to a state law.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/ny...pagewanted=all


    I'm really curious to find it.
    Last edited by ReverendHellh0und; 12-05-14 at 02:09 PM.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    So that would point to the possibility that cigarettes had nothing to do with the confrontation, or the choice to arrest Garner. It was clearly on the top of Garner's mind when the police approached him but that doesn't mean that Garner wasn't just making incorrect assumptions in his agitated state.

    What we know for certain is that the video everyone here is using to discern what happened is critically missing the part of the altercation where the police demeanor changed from folded arms and listening to Garner rant to arresting Garner. Any claim that Garner did nothing to warrant arrest is unfounded because the public simply doesn't have that information, at least not from that video.
    It's possible to support police generally, but still admit that there's a pretty good chance that this cop in this situation was way over the line. I firmly believe that police should receive the benefit of the doubt in virtually all situations. After all its a tough job with a ton of stress and not a lot of pay. But this??? We DO have bad cops in the US.

    Forget the reasons behind anything, they're irrelevant. Whether or not the police were right or wrong to arrest Garner is an entirely separate question. Was Garner fat? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what he had for lunch. It doesn't matter if Garner was a serial killer or a model citizen. It doesn't matter if Garner was a 300lb black man or a 90lb old lady. The police are law enforcement, not administers of justice.

    What we have here is a man that was killed during an arrest in which he did not physically resist. I don't care who you are, what party you vote for, or what color your skin is; that is unacceptable and likely a homicide. Imagine this story where the guy killed was a Tea Partier protesting taxes. What if it was an elderly grandmother? Still feel the same way?

    You're right to point out that we don't have all of the details. That's the point of a trial. Police officers aren't vigilantes. They aren't the final arbiters of violence. They need to be held accountable just like everyone else.

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