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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    As a matter of policy the NYPD prohibits the use. So the answer would be no they cannot. However because it isn't illegal for them to use one a criminal proceeding based solely on the choke-hold will go nowhere.

    Therein lies the technical accuracy of the situation. I personally think a chokehold is terrible, and they shouldn't use it for a reason. But from a legal perspective, it isn't illegal. It's a policy issue. The NYPD should release him from any additional affiliation with them for breaking their policy which according to my BIL is something that the cop as well as the other cops should have known by second nature.
    Hi Tres. I get the difference between 'illegal" and "policy" but is it up to the police to decide whether a choke-hold is legal or not? That would seem to be out of their jurisdiction as they are intended to enforce the laws, not create them.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Nope. I'm asking why a policy that bans the police from using X, still means that X is legal, even though it isn't legal for the rest of the population. Would it not fall outside of what is legal for them to use if they aren't allowed to use it?
    Once again, ask the Justice Department why there is no law on the books that say an NYPD policeman can't use a chokehold. Why are you asking me? I'm not a lawmaker. I'm not the one who gets to decide what the NYPD is allowed or not allowed to do legally, nor is anyone here.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Hi Tres. I get the difference between 'illegal" and "policy" but is it up to the police to decide whether a choke-hold is legal or not? That would seem to be out of their jurisdiction as they are intended to enforce the laws, not create them.
    Of course it isn't up to the police to make laws. They just enforce them. It's up to the lawmakers to decide what the laws are.

    Which is why the cop in question couldn't be indicted by the Grand Jury for breaking NYPD policy. People keep bringing up the policy being banned by the NYPD as if it was something they were supposed to consider. They weren't. That's a matter for the NYPD. That said, they should have considered whether this was undue force and intentional or willful disregard for human life (or something like that...not a lawyer here) which has nothing to do with the NYPD policy itself.

    Happy Friday Grant!
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    That's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that if the policy is banned by the employer, and it's illegal for another person who isn't a cop to use it, how can it be legal for cops to use it? Yes, and I'm stating it's a double standard.
    The police are given special powers not enjoyed by the citizen which is why citizens, in granting them these powers, must be careful that the power the police enjoy is not corrupted, as power often is.

    This is not an indictment against all, many, or most police officers in this Eric Garner case. It is against the officer, or officers, who abused their authority and exercised poor and overzealous judgement. The public must have confidence that those who have the power to 'serve and protect' must do so within the law. We give the police discretion realizing that they have a difficult job to do under often dangerous circumstances but this was not a dangerous situation at all. It seemed more of a power trip by the cop who attacked Garner from behind and, from what we see on the video, this action cannot be justified.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Why did the officer announce his intent? On what grounds? And this 'tamest take down', totally unnecessary by the way, killed the man. There was no apparent need to even talk with Eric Garner, much less 'take him down'.

    If his 30 prior arrests were anything like selling cigarettes on the street then the NYPD should look around for something more constructive to do.

    Here's what the guy who shot the video, who appeared in front of the GJ, had to say. Eric Garner grand jury rigged, says man who filmed chokehold - NY Daily News
    No....8,734 cheeseburgers too many and no time on the stair master 'killed the man'.

    The guy that shot the video...the one w/ 27 (and now 28) arrests for charges ranging from possession, distribution, theft, assault, and weapons charges? Yeah...excuse me if I find his testimony just the tiniest bit self serving.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    So you have evidence that there is a considerable amount of time elapsed? Correct?
    It doesn't have to be a considerable amount of time. We know there is missing tape, of an indeterminate length, from the video. We know this because there is an obvious cut between Garner's complaint and garner's take down. I am not the one assigning a what if to that missing time. It is you and the other pro-indictment folks imagining what happened in that missing video, I am simply here to tell you that you have no way on making any determination on whether the arrest attempt was warranted or not based on that video because it is clearly incomplete.


    No one said he was being arrested for no reason.
    Sure they have. Read the thread.

    As a matter of fact, it's been established the cops approached him over some 3 quarter cigarettes and then put him in a chokehold because he talked a little too loud for their liking.
    And I am saying that you have no way of knowing what instigated the take down. And your story is wrong anyway. The store owner called the police on Garner.

    That's the reason this thread has gone on for 176 pages. We have people like you who thinks this was a reasonable response to a 40 year old smokes peddler and people like me who see it as an assault/manslaughter/murder (depends on the person) by some weak cops. Keep at the suppositions though. It's fun to know you haven't moved up from what if.
    No, it has gone on for so many pages because there are posters like you who insist that all there is to know is contained in an edited video.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Ummm... what the hell are you on about? Yes it does. I showed you video depicting what happened before and after the original video. What missing footage are you talking about? Wait.. how do you know there is missing footage?
    Except the missing piece isn't before or after the original video, it's in the middle.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Of course it isn't up to the police to make laws. They just enforce them. It's up to the lawmakers to decide what the laws are. Which is why the cop in question couldn't be indicted by the Grand Jury for breaking NYPD policy. People keep bringing up the policy being banned by the NYPD as if it was something they were supposed to consider. They weren't. That's a matter for the NYPD. That said, they should have considered whether this was undue force and intentional or willful disregard for human life (or something like that...not a lawyer here) which has nothing to do with the NYPD policy itself.
    So choke-holds are legal but against NYPD policy. Would that be right? (I'm still on my first coffee!)

    Happy Friday Grant!
    Thanks, and a very Happy Friday to you and yours as well!

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    I don't know. I have known a few over the years. The ones I met were pretty impressive people. Of course like attracts like. :-)
    Thanks for the anecdote. I am glad you have had great experience with cops; many of us have. My guess is that you never were an inner-city black kid, so I doubt you have had that experience. Cops are people too: there are good ones, bad ones, competent ones, incompetent one, white ones, black ones, blue ones, righteous ones and evil ones. Your experience may vary.

    You do realize, however, that unless the argument was one of "ALL" or "NONE", then a anecdote is not an argument. Its only a nice story. Thank you for sharing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    The rules are far more lenient for a grand jury than for a trial. The bar is intentionally set lower than for a trial. I do not believe you understand that.

    Justice was served.
    If you understand how the GJ process works. its not a trial, but a one-sided presentation of evidence. As such, the GJ usually comes to the verdict the DA wants. It is not a perfect process by any means.

    Now, if I were a wimp DA... and my dad was a cop was shot on the job, I might not have much zeal for prosecuting a cop (nor would I want someone else to do it). I just might give a lackluster presentation to a grand jury to let them come to a "not enough evidence" decision to provide cover for a decision, if I were to make it, would have me skewered by many in my community as well as nationally. I don't want to prosecute, I don't want anyone else to prosecute and I don't want to be known as the man that did not prosecute..... Great Idea: call a grand jury. Just a thought.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 12-05-14 at 01:01 PM.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Why did the officer announce his intent? On what grounds? And this 'tamest take down', totally unnecessary by the way, killed the man. There was no apparent need to even talk with Eric Garner, much less 'take him down'.

    If his 30 prior arrests were anything like selling cigarettes on the street then the NYPD should look around for something more constructive to do.

    Here's what the guy who shot the video, who appeared in front of the GJ, had to say. Eric Garner grand jury rigged, says man who filmed chokehold - NY Daily News
    How do you know the officer never stated his intent? As I keep telling you folks the part of the video where the officer would have done that is missing from the video. It cuts straight from Garner's complaint to the arrest attempt. You won't often see a police officer explaining the reason for the arrest during the process of wrestling the suspect to the ground. That comes before, and that is where the video is missing.

    It was announced on the news this morning that unlike the rest of us, the Grand Jury actually saw four videos of the altercation (or maybe not, see edit), three of which we haven't seen, as will as interviewed 50 witnesses, so trying to second guess the Grand Jury without all the information is a foolish.

    From that article, here is the list of evidence the Grand Jury used to arrive at their verdict:

    The grand jury sat for nine weeks.

    They heard from 50 witnesses 22 civilians and the rest were police officers, emergency medical personnel and doctors.

    Sixty exhibits were admitted into evidence, including four videos and records about the policies and procedures of the New York Police Department.

    They saw medical records, photographs and autopsy records.

    They saw records on NYPD training.

    Finally, they were briefed on law that governs a police officer's use of physical force when making an arrest.



    Edit: But, from that report I can't be sure if the 4 videos were of the altercation. It could just as easily be the 1 video of the altercation plus 3 police training videos
    Last edited by jmotivator; 12-05-14 at 12:59 PM.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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