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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Hi Grant.
    In NYC a pack of cigarettes costs between 11-13 bucks due to all the taxes placed on them. This has created a black market problem for NYC where people will purchase cigarettes in another state for much less and bring them back to NY and sell them much cheaper by the pack or loosies for a few bucks versus putting out 13 for a full pack. In January 2014 tough new penalties for selling untaxed cigarettes took effect in New York City. The city’s highest-ranking uniformed cop, Philip Banks, issued an order to crack down on loosie sales days before Garner died.
    McQUILLAN: Lessons from Eric Garner's death and cigarette taxes - Washington Times
    Garner has been arrested several times for selling untaxed cigarettes. Reports state the NYPD have confirmed he was part of an organized ring black marketing cigarettes. And that he had been under surveillance for some time to find out the name of his supplier . It's the merchants in the area that reported Garner to the police for his activities as he moved from one location to another to set up his business in front of their stores.
    BREAKING: NYPD Confirms #EricGarner Was A Member of Organized Crime in Staten Island - GotNews
    While these laws on cigarettes and the punishment/fines seem rather over the top to a lot of people, you got to understand this is NYC where Mayor Bloomberg went after cigarettes hiking taxes and banning smoking almost everywhere and was responsible for the harsher penalties that went into effect this year for selling untaxed cigarettes. Out of Garner's 30 some arrests, around 6 arrests were for selling untaxed cigarettes.
    Thanks for that Vesper, and it's truly appreciated.

    It seems the world is going mad and we're all adjusting to it, and always making ourselves a little bit more crazy during the process. If we can write off this man's life because of suspicion of selling untaxed cigarettes then there really isn't much more can be said that doesn't bring in the much larger picture of where this all might lead.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Can the NYPD place you in a chokehold? Yes or no answer.



    And that's kind of the point. This case highlights the inconsistencies in how the police are treated and seen. If a bouncer had done the same to a patron they felt threatened them, it would be assault - cut and clear case. Yet a badge makes a difference in this case. Why?
    It's amazing to me that you don't know the difference between the legal authority granted police officers and the rights of a bouncer.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    To my knowledge, Eric Garner didn't owe any taxes - he was selling cigarettes illegally. Every legal entity in NYC that sells cigarettes has a license to do so and sells them in packages that are sealed and come directly from the distributor. If they sell to a minor or break open packs and sell them separately, they will also be charged and potentially subject to arrest if they do it enough times.

    Selling untaxed cigarettes is a avoiding taxes, albiet on a much lesser scale than the sharpton. selling loosies is a finable misdemeanor but the law on loosies is dubious.


    If the IRS issued a warrant for Al Sharpton's arrest, I'm pretty sure big Al would glory in the publicity and enjoy being handcuffed on the streets. If big Al decided to resist arrest, he might very well also find himself face planted into the pavement and forcibly detained.

    Equating Al Sharpton to Eric Garner does nothing to advance the discussion. But that's just my view

    It points out the absurdity of the situation that a man died for suspicion of selling single untaxed loose cigarettes is being defended publically by another person who owed more than 4 million.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Selling untaxed cigarettes is a avoiding taxes, albiet on a much lesser scale than the sharpton. selling loosies is a finable misdemeanor but the law on loosies is dubious.





    It points out the absurdity of the situation that a man died for suspicion of selling single untaxed loose cigarettes is being defended publically by another person who owed more than 4 million.
    The point is that it's the selling of loose cigarettes that is the crime, not the non-collection of taxes on those sales of loose cigarettes.

    I'll grant you, however, that it is NYC's lust for tax dollars that causes it's police officers to go to such extremes to enforce such laws.

    Al Sharpton is scum, in my view, but his defense of Garner should be based on the circumstances of the event and not be tainted by his personal legal issues.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Somehow I'm doubting Charlie Rangel would be tackled by 5 Capital police and administered a choke hold until he's handcuffed. Just guess tho....
    If they do, I hope the cameras are there to record the incident.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    The point is that it's the selling of loose cigarettes that is the crime, not the non-collection of taxes on those sales of loose cigarettes.
    Can you cite the specific city or state code that makes selling loosies a crime?

    I'll grant you, however, that it is NYC's lust for tax dollars that causes it's police officers to go to such extremes to enforce such laws.
    More than that. diblasio instructed the police commissioner to crack down on it. now that he has, diblasio throws him under the bus.


    Al Sharpton is scum, in my view, but his defense of Garner should be based on the circumstances of the event and not be tainted by his personal legal issues.

    He should simply walk into the hudson imo.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Is committing a felony an arrestable offense, in your opinion?
    Sure.

    why do you ask? Is the question somehow relevant to the current discussion, or simply an aside?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    It's amazing to me that you don't know the difference between the legal authority granted police officers and the rights of a bouncer.
    If they're banned from using the procedure, how can they also have the authority to use it? I'll wait for you to figure that out.
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Garner has been arrested several times for selling untaxed cigarettes. Reports state the NYPD have confirmed he was part of an organized ring black marketing cigarettes.
    Reports by what can only be described as a biased news source.

    By the way, he was accused of selling loosies -- i.e. single cigarettes from a pack. Wow. Obviously, he was a violent career criminal.


    While these laws on cigarettes and the punishment/fines seem rather over the top to a lot of people....
    Or they don't.

    We should note that selling single cigarettes is not a capital crime.


    Mayor Bloomberg went after cigarettes hiking taxes and banning smoking almost everywhere and was responsible for the harsher penalties that went into effect this year for selling untaxed cigarettes.
    Thanks for ignoring the actual issue.

    Garner wasn't killed by cigarette laws. He died from a choke hold and chest compressions while the police were trying to take him into custody. He wasn't trying to flee, he wasn't attacking the officers, he wasn't accused of a violent crime.

    On November 22nd, a NYPD officer used a baton on a 20 year old fare-jumper named Donovan Lawson. Rather than pay $2.75 for a subway fare, he jumped the turnstile. In the process of the arrest, the officer hit the man in the head with a baton; pulled on his hoodie when Lawson tried to lurch away from the officer.

    NYPD officer smashes alleged fare beater in head with baton - NY Daily News

    Even if you consider this to be fully justified, it shows that any offense, however trivial, can result in a violent response by a NYPD officer. Meanwhile, NYPD officers are rarely reprimanded for abuse.

    The causal factor here isn't the law that's broken, or even the response by the suspect. It's that the city has turned a blind eye to police tactics.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    If they're banned from using the procedure, how can they also have the authority to use it? I'll wait for you to figure that out.
    Wut? He was (correctly) pointing out that you're trying to give a bouncer the same rights to stop a criminal or suspect in the act of something as the cops have.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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