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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Can the NYPD place you in a chokehold? Yes or no answer.



    And that's kind of the point. This case highlights the inconsistencies in how the police are treated and seen. If a bouncer had done the same to a patron they felt threatened them, it would be assault - cut and clear case. Yet a badge makes a difference in this case. Why?


    There are no laws in the State of New York prohibiting the police from using a choke-hold though there are in other jurisdictions. As a matter of policy the NYPD prohibits the use. So the answer would be no they cannot. However because it isn't illegal for them to use one a criminal proceeding based solely on the choke-hold will go nowhere. It becomes an NYPD administrative issue and the most the NYPD can do is fire the guy and possibly take action against his pension. That's it.

    Of course the family can, and should, and will, bring a civil action, but that's against the city - the taxpayers - and not the cop. The NYPD pays a hundred million or so a year to settle civil cases against it. If for no other reason the people should be screaming for change because of that alone.


    Of course the police are treated differently. They ultimately cannot do their job if they can't force compliance with their legal orders. That doesn't mean that force should be first resort as it was here. It should be
    the last resort.
    Last edited by Gaius46; 12-05-14 at 10:42 AM.
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  2. #1772
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Yes you did. Here is a post I made to you 2 days ago where you did the same thing.
    Eh: Here is the post I made:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    The fact that the GJ didn't even so much as bring forward a manslaughter charge shows that it wasn't considered. C'mon tres. You can't be blind to what happened here. Police tried to arrest a guy for selling bootleg cigarettes. He was handled in a way banned by the NYPD. There was no evidence he was selling bootleg cigarettes. Guy is now dead and a ****ty police officer is probably on paid leave.
    I didn't attribute anything to you. I simply said you may not be seeing what happened here if you thought the jury had considered manslaughter. Then I thanked you for stating that you were opened to possibility that police were in the wrong. That's not attributing anything.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    There are no laws in the State of New York prohibiting the police from using a choke-hold though there are in other jurisdictions. As a matter of policy the NYPD prohibits the use. So the answer would be no they cannot. However because it isn't illegal for them to use one a criminal proceeding based solely on the choke-hold will go nowhere. It becomes an NYPD administrative issue and the most the NYPD can do is fire the guy and possibly take action against his pension. That's it.

    Of course the family, and should, and will, bring a civil action, but that's against the city - the taxpayers - and not the cop. The NYPD pays a hundred million or so a year to settle civil cases against it. If for no other reason the people should be screaming for change because of that alone.


    Of course the police are treated differently. They ultimately cannot do their job if they can't force compliance with their legal orders. That doesn't mean that force should be first resort as it was here. It should be
    the last resort.
    As a matter of policy the NYPD prohibits the use. So the answer would be no they cannot. However because it isn't illegal for them to use one a criminal proceeding based solely on the choke-hold will go nowhere.

    Therein lies the technical accuracy of the situation. I personally think a chokehold is terrible, and they shouldn't use it for a reason. But from a legal perspective, it isn't illegal. It's a policy issue. The NYPD should release him from any additional affiliation with them for breaking their policy which according to my BIL is something that the cop as well as the other cops should have known by second nature.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Eh: Here is the post I made:



    I didn't attribute anything to you. I simply said you may not be seeing what happened here if you thought the jury had considered manslaughter. Then I thanked you for stating that you were opened to possibility that police were in the wrong. That's not attributing anything.
    I don't think you read your posts again. You made claims in both of them that I didn't think the cops did anything wrong, and my posts say something completely different. You even brought Libertarianism into this somehow. This isn't a Libertarian/Republican/Democrat issue for me. My political lean is irrelevant. This is about what the GJ saw, what the tape shows, and whether the cop committed a crime (not a blatant disregard for his employer's policy).
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    As a matter of policy the NYPD prohibits the use. So the answer would be no they cannot. However because it isn't illegal for them to use one a criminal proceeding based solely on the choke-hold will go nowhere.

    Therein lies the technical accuracy of the situation. I personally think a chokehold is terrible, and they shouldn't use it for a reason. But from a legal perspective, it isn't illegal. It's a policy issue. The NYPD should release him from any additional affiliation with them for breaking their policy which according to my BIL is something that the cop as well as the other cops should have known by second nature.
    I agree completely. As does my brother who's a retired NYPD Sgt.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    There are no laws in the State of New York prohibiting the police from using a choke-hold
    Except their own policies. In short, we're arguing that if the police are banned from doing something, then that something is still lawful for them to use. That's just plainly absurd.

    though there are in other jurisdictions. As a matter of policy the NYPD prohibits the use. So the answer would be no they cannot. However because it isn't illegal for them to use one a criminal proceeding based solely on the choke-hold will go nowhere. It becomes an NYPD administrative issue and the most the NYPD can do is fire the guy and possibly take action against his pension. That's it.

    Of course the family, and should, and will, bring a civil action, but that's against the city - the taxpayers - and not the cop. The NYPD pays a hundred million or so a year to settle civil cases against it. If for no other reason the people should be screaming for change because of that alone.

    Of course the police are treated differently. They ultimately cannot do their job if they can't force compliance with their legal orders. That doesn't mean that force should be first resort as it was here. It should be the last resort.
    The wider point is that if someone without a badge had done this, it wouldn't be justified. There is no blurry line here about whether the person had a gun. There is no blurry line about whether this person attacked the police. There is no blurry line about who attacked who. So why is the exception being made for cops here?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I don't think you read your posts again. You made claims in both of them that I didn't think the cops did anything wrong, and my posts say something completely different. You even brought Libertarianism into this somehow. This isn't a Libertarian/Republican/Democrat issue for me. My political lean is irrelevant. This is about what the GJ saw, what the tape shows, and whether the cop committed a crime (not a blatant disregard for his employer's policy).
    If that's what you thought, it's on you. But that wasn't my intention.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Except their own policies. In short, we're arguing that if the police are banned from doing something, then that something is still lawful for them to use. That's just plainly absurd.



    The wider point is that if someone without a badge had done this, it wouldn't be justified. There is no blurry line here about whether the person had a gun. There is no blurry line about whether this person attacked the police. There is no blurry line about who attacked who. So why is the exception being made for cops here?
    A Grand Jury can not hand down an indictment to an NYPD officer for breaking his employer's banned policy.

    You're asking another poster why cops have more leeway with suspects that you or I would have. Why don't you ask the Justice Department to change the overarching laws so that no cop can' touch, grab, force down, or brandish a gun on any suspect?

    You have to already know that the cops are allowed by law to deal with something in a different way than citizens are. There are reasons why we can't police ourselves as a society, I assume.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Except their own policies. In short, we're arguing that if the police are banned from doing something, then that something is still lawful for them to use. That's just plainly absurd.



    The wider point is that if someone without a badge had done this, it wouldn't be justified. There is no blurry line here about whether the person had a gun. There is no blurry line about whether this person attacked the police. There is no blurry line about who attacked who. So why is the exception being made for cops here?
    There's nothing absurd about it. I don't know that the issue has ever come before the state legislature or the NYC Council but if it did they decided to leave it to the PD to decide whether the use of the choke-hold made sense or not. The NYPD decided it didn't make sense for them. Other NY State police agencies may have decided otherwise.

    The NYPD, like any other organization, is free to make rules governing how its employees discharge their duties. They cannot tell officers to do something that is illegal but they can restrict the legal things that they can do. Every employer does that.


    Again the exception is made is for cops, in general, because if they can't force someone to do something they cannot do their jobs. If they go to arrest someone and that person just walks away how are they to deal with it if they can't legally grab the guy and cuff him? That doesn't mean that they can use excessive force and the there are legal (though rarely successful) and administrative remedies when cops go overboard. The difference is that you and I can never legally initiate the use force. We are automatically wrong. The police aren't necessarily automatically wrong.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    A Grand Jury can not hand down an indictment to an NYPD officer for breaking his employer's banned policy.
    That's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that if the policy is banned by the employer, and it's illegal for another person who isn't a cop to use it, how can it be legal for cops to use it?

    You're asking another poster why cops have more leeway with suspects that you or I would have. Why don't you ask the Justice Department to change the overarching laws so that no cop can' touch, grab, force down, or brandish a gun on any suspect?

    You have to already know that the cops are allowed by law to deal with something in a different way than citizens are. There are reasons why we can't police ourselves as a society, I assume.
    Yes, and I'm stating it's a double standard.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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