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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Quick question: Imagine your significant other is getting a little loud at a bar. A few bouncers don't like his loudness and get in his face. A short exchange of words happens, then one of them, in order to subdue him puts him in a similar chokehold and 5 others jump on him to hold him down and tie him up.

    Is it assault?
    I would think so. I don't think it's legal for bouncers to assault patrons except in the case of self-defense (or perhaps coming to the defense of others). Why do you ask?
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I would think so. I don't think it's legal for bouncers to assault patrons except in the case of self-defense (or perhaps coming to the defense of others). Why do you ask?
    I ask to make a point.

    That point being: In similar a situation, your significant other's inebriation level didn't make a difference as to what you'd label the actions taken by the police. Yet, you're justifying the police doing the same thing to a perfectly sober person over cigarettes. In both cases, figures of authority attacked a person because they felt threatened. In both cases the person did something the figures of authority didn't like. In both cases the authorities did something they're not allowed to do for one reason or another. However, clear that the only difference here, at least for you, is a cop's badge. That's a pretty dangerous way of thinking for someone who claims to be a libertarian.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I ask to make a point.

    That point being: In similar a situation, your significant other's inebriation level didn't make a difference as to what you'd label the actions taken by the police. Yet, you're justifying the police doing the same thing to a perfectly sober person over cigarettes. In both cases, figures of authority attacked a person because they felt threatened. In both cases the person did something the figures of authority didn't like. In both cases the authorities did something they're not allowed to do for one reason or another. However, clear that the only difference here, at least for you, is a cop's badge. That's a pretty dangerous way of thinking for someone who claims to be a libertarian.
    Wut? This is the second time in this thread you've attributed posts to me I never made. I never justified the police doing anything in this thread. Never.

    Stop it right now.

    The post I made to Vesper that got you worked up was clarifying that the chokehold rule for police on duty is not an illegal versus legal thing. Chokeholds by NYPD police are not illegal by definition of the law. They were banned as a practice by the NYPD. You should not have taken that as I'm supporting the NYPD actions and something about a "cop's badge".

    It infuriates me when people make assumptions about my opinions on what happened based on nothing. You're better than this. Please stop.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Quick question: Imagine your significant other is getting a little loud at a bar. A few bouncers don't like his loudness and get in his face. A short exchange of words happens, then one of them, in order to subdue him puts him in a similar chokehold and 5 others jump on him to hold him down and tie him up.

    Is it assault?
    This is a false parallel. Bouncers cannot legally initiate the use of force. The police can. Assuming the patron didn't throw the first punch the bouncers - even if it's a 1 on 1 - are mostly likely guilty. The police are most likely not.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Then you would have no problem if someone jumped your wife or mother from behind with a chock hold, threw her to the concrete, while another man shoved her head into concrete and the full weigh of a man on her back - because that's tame and there is no danger of it.

    You know that by your medical expertise and having participated in the autopsy.

    Your end of your sentence is your cheering his death, nothing else.
    If they were resisting arrest? Nah. Well...OK...because it would be personal it would probably piss me off. BUT...if my wife or mother had been arrested 30 times before for varying charges, I'd like to think that make me understand things just a little bit better.

    I know that by reading the preliminary findings released by the medical examiner that stated that as fact. I'd love to see the actual autopsy...yes.

    The emotional appeal is a lousy debate tactic Joko. Ironically YOU are acting more personally invested in this than his family is.

    NOT surprisingly, you and Hatuey are employing the same tactics. Its more of that whole minds thinking alike thing.
    Last edited by VanceMack; 12-05-14 at 10:37 AM.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Wut? This is the second time in this thread you've attributed posts to me I never made. I never justified the police doing anything in this thread. Never.
    Eh, the last time I talked to you in this thread I didn't attribute anything to you...

    Stop it right now.

    The post I made to Vesper that got you worked up was clarifying that the chokehold rule for police on duty is not an illegal versus legal thing. Chokeholds by NYPD police are not illegal by definition of the law. They were banned as a practice by the NYPD. You should not have taken that as I'm supporting the NYPD actions and something about a "cop's badge".

    It infuriates me when people make assumptions about my opinions on what happened based on nothing. You're better than this. Please stop.
    If all that changes is physical setting and the characters, the chokehold is considered part of an assault and illegal action. If the setting stays the same, it's not illegal and it's not assault even though they're not allowed to use it. That's the point. C'man... I know you can see this.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    This is a false parallel. Bouncers cannot legally initiate the use of force.
    Can the NYPD place you in a chokehold? Yes or no answer.

    The police can. Assuming the patron didn't throw the first punch the bouncers - even if it's a 1 on 1 - are mostly likely guilty. The police are most likely not.
    And that's kind of the point. This case highlights the inconsistencies in how the police are treated and seen. If a bouncer had done the same to a patron they felt threatened them, it would be assault - cut and clear case. Yet a badge makes a difference in this case. Why?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    I posted this in another thread long ago, before this issue came up. So I'm being redundant, but it relates somewhat to specifically why they stopped him in the first place for the cigs.

    My BIL, the now retired NYPD cop, at one time was a Transit Cop in the Bronx, when Transit was a separate unit. He said at the start of every shift the first thing he and his partner did was go down and grab the first turnstile jumper they saw, not because jumping turnstiles is a horrible crime, but because much of the time they were lucky when they brought the perp into the station, and they come to find there were outstanding arrest warrants for the perp. They couldn't and didn't just randomly go after men on the street but instead used petty crime to (hopefully) uncover that there was something bigger there.

    I talked to him last night about the Garner case, and he reminded me of that. Of course he doesn't know all the facts anymore than we do, but he said the cig collar was more than likely intended to play out just as his collars used to.

    Collaterally but related to the story, his opinion as a retired NYPD Sergeant is that the cop here was wrong because he used that chokehold which was specifically prohibited by the NYPD. His bigger question is why the people who were on the GJ, who are normal citizens and not cops, didn't at least look at the video and say "This requires further scrutiny", which is what they were supposed to do. He didn't know if the guy would actually be convicted in trial or not, but that would be a reasonable decision on their part, assuming they saw the video.

    That's my 2 cents, for all it's worth.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Can the NYPD place you in a chokehold? Yes or no answer.
    In NYC it's a grey area, policy says no, whether that makes it illegal or not, sadly is ambiguous.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Eh, the last time I talked to you in this thread I didn't attribute anything to you...



    If all that changes is physical setting and the characters, the chokehold is considered part of an assault and illegal action. If the setting stays the same, it's not illegal and it's not assault even though they're not allowed to use it. That's the point. C'man... I know you can see this.
    Yes you did. Here is a post I made to you 2 days ago where you did the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Huh? I don't think you've read my posts in this thread my friend. I didn't say that the cop is not culpable of something here. I don't really care about the bootleg cigs. I asked what the charges were the GJ was supposed to consider, that's all. I asked because I don't know. I know what the Ferguson GJ was asked to consider.

    My husband just said this cop was suspended without pay in July according to everything he's heard on the news and read on the net?
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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