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Thread: No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

  1. #1181
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Seems you and Joko are like minded. Maybe you two together can come up with the actual cause of death. He also is going with homicide but offered the countering position of dying of 'resisting arrest'. So...you know...two heads....maybe you can come up with an actual answer.

    What did he die of?
    It appears he died of a heart attack caused by being violently assaulted, chocked and his breathing restricted further by weight on body.

    Your logic is nonsensical. If a person is beaten to death, that the person died of "internal bleeding" would not then be a defense claiming it wasn't the impacts that caused the death - but that is your logic. It also is your logic that the defense could argue that if the person beaten to death had been in better health the person wouldn't had died.

    All that is ridiculous logic. IF the assault brought on the heart attack, the assault is what caused the death.

    "Your honor, it wasn't raping the 91 year old that killed her. She did not die from being violently assaulted. She died of internal bleeding. She had been a fully healthy young woman she would not have died. Therefore, there was no murder." This is YOUR absurd find-anything logic.

    If someone dies of a heart attack while being illegally violently assaulted it is murder or manslaughter. You say otherwise.

    The question in this instance was whether the assault was criminally illegal. Was it legal for that officer to jump on his back putting him into a chock hold? THAT is the legal question.

  2. #1182
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    And now he's dead. I don't smoke but I don't believe that I have the right to tell others not to smoke.

    Or sell cigarettes.

    I don't believe that Eric Garner should be dead. From what I've read the man died because he was selling loose cigarettes. I wonder how many more people in New York will suffer the same fate.


    Heya SN. Here is why the Cop will lose his job and with the coverage. It is a set of tragic events, that is no doubt.






    I Can’t Breathe’

    By this time, numerous officers are on the scene holding Mr. Garner down. Officer Pantaleo releases his neck hold, and presses Mr. Garner’s head onto the sidewalk as Mr. Garner repeats “I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe.”

    Officer Pantaleo: Officer Pantaleo said he heard Mr. Garner say he couldn't breathe, and removed his arm from the neck hold as quickly as he could. The video shows Mr. Garner saying, "I can't breathe" at least once before the officer released the hold.....snip~


    He didn't need to use both his hands to mash Garners head into the sidewalk.....but that wasn't what caused this guys death.


    Do you think the GJ noted that he removed the choke hold after the guy said he couldn't breathe, once?
    Last edited by MMC; 12-04-14 at 03:22 PM.

  3. #1183
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Ummm... chances are the man could tell she was a woman before beating them.
    That's irrelevant to the defense being used. Again, your argument is saying that "what if" is a reasonable defense for acting violently. It isn't.

    Sorry, but it is a simple truth that when subduing people you use an entirely different level of force for a 6'3" 360LB man than you do a 5'0" 120LB woman... or a 6' 200LB man, for that matter.
    Subduing him for what? Responding rudely to the police? What was it that he did that made cops so scared of him? He didn't want to talk to them? He wasn't under any obligation to.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  4. #1184
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    Howdy P!

    Yes, there appears to be a new wave of "victimization" in this country. In the 60's we were trying to overcome adversity. Sure, people advocated for the rights of women and the rights of blacks but there was a general presumption that blacks and women would also strive to overcome those things that were holding them back. It was a two sided effort.

    However, at that same time there arose an academic cadre that discovered that there was a lot of power and money to be had in "victim assistance". If you were a good "victim's advocate" or "community organizer" you could get a whole lot of say in how much money the government should provide to assist the cause of equality. You could also have a lot of say in how and to whom that money got distributed.

    It wasn't too long after that realization that it became apparent to some that all these people that were being helped made up one heck of a bloc of voters and how better to secure votes than by the old carrot and stick routine? You could hand out "assistance" with one hand but there would always be the understanding that disagreement with the system would mean that assistance would be at risk.

    The last revelation in the chain was that if this voting bloc could be expanded quite a bit if only more people were victims of "inequality" and needed assistance. That's where we are now. There is a MASSIVE effort to get people to believe that they are victims of something. Blacks are supposed to be victims of whites. Gays are supposed to be victims of straights. Atheists are supposed to be victims of theists. Blondes are victims of brunettes. Everyone is a victim of corporations and government is a victim of the people.

    Welcome to the 21st Century!!!

    It's not what I pictured but it seems to be what I have to deal with.


    Two sets of 'victims' that get no attention are the elderly and the mentally ill. They aren't 'sexy' causes.

    It's like scientific research. In order to be a P3, professional poverty pimp [social worker/community organizer] you need a cause, and the cause has to be more severe and wide swathed than the other causes. Therefore the cause has to be built up in the public's eye. Here, the big NGO's have dozens of staff but deliver far from real comfort while the mental illness workers are largely volunteer barely making do.

    And, as always, the more dramatic the pictures, the more the need is perceived to be urgent and what better show than a war story with fires and military hardware. Who wants to hear about some guy thinking he's Satan and goes about the collecting of souls with an assault rifle? It just isn't in the same league
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

  5. #1185
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Another absurd message.

    IF Gardener had been a 360 pound world champion MMA fighter or WWF champion... then yes, at least for a little while - he could have protected himself from being assaulted and killed by multiple police officers assaulting him to prevent him having an opportunity to resist arrest - for which they tactically decided NOT to inform him he was arrested and instead to surprise take him down before he could resist arrest if told he was under arrest.

    New police procedure - pre-emptively beat a person down and into submissive prior to effecting or notifying of an arrest to prevent possible resistance arrest. Beat the person down violently into physical submission first - then inform the person he is under arrest. However, if the person resists being beaten, then it is after-the-fact-resisting arrest, which he is informed of being arrested after his resistance to it.

    It seems there is a contest by police groupies of who can post the most absurd reasoning.
    You video evidence picks up after the confrontation already started so you have no clue what was and wasn't said to Gardener, also it cuts away between Garner's rant and the actual attempted arrest. So you really have no idea what you are talking about.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Ummm... chances are the man could tell she was a woman before beating them. Sorry, but it is a simple truth that when subduing people you use an entirely different level of force for a 6'3" 360LB man than you do a 5'0" 120LB woman... or a 6' 200LB man, for that matter.
    Chocking someone from behind while others take him to the ground and weight placed on the person's back or chest will "subdue" someone. The MOST effectively subdued people are dead people for sure.

    Did they tell him he was arrested after he was unconscious or dead? Or never?

    At least, then, it should be on his tombstone "You are under arrest."

  7. #1187
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    How the holy-hell is ANY of this relevant to the fact that the officer's chokehold and subsequent police dogpile led to Garner's death?
    I don't care if he's standing with one foot in the grave, their actions pushed him over the edge and killed him.


    I'll bet that at the lawsuit the cops story will be that Garner stepped up to the edge and they shouldn't be held responsible because he fell.

  8. #1188
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by beefheart View Post
    Give him a ticket.

    And, not kill him.

    Seems simple.
    Even for traffic offenses they arrest you when they catch you doing the same offence the 32cd time.

  9. #1189
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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    That's irrelevant to the defense being used. Again, your argument is saying that "what if" is a reasonable defense for acting violently. It isn't.
    No, I'm not stating a "what if". I am making clear statements of fact as to the level of health of Mr. Garner and to the difficulty of subdoing a 6'3" 360LB man.

    Subduing him for what? Responding rudely to the police? What was it that he did that made cops so scared of him? He didn't want to talk to them? He wasn't under any obligation to.
    Given that you don't have video of what led up to Garner's yelling at the cops, and it cuts away between his yelling and the arrest, you really don't have a clue what happened.

    Watch the full video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1ka4oKu1jo

    What happens in the video between second 33 and second 34. What happened between those two takes?
    Last edited by jmotivator; 12-04-14 at 03:31 PM.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    WHo would tell you he died of 'resisting arrest'? Thats just silly. He had to have died of some form or cardio or respiratory failure. What did he die of?
    A heart attack.

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