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Thread: Utah man gets maximum sentence in hate crime case

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    Re: Utah man gets maximum sentence in hate crime case

    Quote Originally Posted by Libertie76 View Post
    1. I state motivation should not be a crime of itself. I suggest I misspoke because I said not charge based on motivation rather then crime of itself you did not prove any of this to be false, you actually started arguing with me for no inherent reason

    2. It's not "sometimes it's ok sometimes it's not" it's that we can't charge motivation itself but rather how heinous the crime is which is my point

    3. So attacking someone based on political thought is not a form of prejudice?
    4.) What if you hate ugly people and that's why you punched her, is that now a hate crime? Or you think all black girls are ugly so you punch a black girl because she's ugly is that now a hate crime
    5.) where does the line start and end?
    6.) Info I provided is the inherent crime based on political prejudice and if that is a hate crime by definition, and you stated you don't know which shows how confusing and broad hate crime laws actually are
    7.) It is opinion of the matter, yes, however my argument is that this policy causes more division which is shown with my examples that you aren't able to refute that it's the policy.
    8.) No Jim Crow laws aren't hate crime laws but you stated subjective opinion causes division not laws.
    9.). I'm not changing my original opinion, however I have suggested I over generalized, I should have been more specific and you're right about that. Now I still think motivation should not be a crime in of itself

    10) So you think motivation should be a crime of itself? Should a killer get a lesser sentence then a different killer because he lacked actual motivation and was just a psychopath? If no then shouldn't motivation be only in regards to certain aspects of the heinous crime itself? A white guy killing a black guy because he's black should be given more prison time due to how heinous that crime is.
    11.) But that doesn't mean we should bring in thought crimes because when we fail to bring in those thought crimes it will undoubtedly bring in more division.
    12.)Thanks for your attempt to help while refusing to answer my questions.
    13.) I don't even know why you started trying to debate me in the first place I seriously just asked you a question.
    1.) yes i know you took back your original statement
    who said i proved anythign wrong?
    no i didnt start the argument you did lol
    i still am not arguing, i pointed out a fact that you didnt like about your statements and now you retracted them and clarified them
    2.) good thing i never said otherwise and yes you admit that sometimes its ok and sometimes its not
    3.) weird, who said that? not me, do you frequently make up strawman like this?
    4.) not by your description of law
    5.) same place it does for all laws based on written law judge and jury
    6.) wrong again i simply pointed out that i didnt know because laws vary from areas. Yes you are pointing to federal laws but federal laws also have state standards that coincied with them at times and add to them. ANd i also mentioned evidence. It wanst based on "confusion"
    7.) you havent shown one single example that increases division based on law . . not one . . only based on feelings lol
    8.) nope wrong again i stated that in your examples the cause of division is feelings and that fact reminds true
    9.) but you did, you changed your opinion as it was written, In you head you may have not of changed it but you fixed your statments which did actually represent your opinion as written.
    10.) did i say that? nope another failed straw man
    11.) again you are talking about feelings which dont matter to law and rights.
    people make the same argument about equal rights for woman, minority and now gay rights. the law itself wont cause the division in those cases. Bigots and thier feelings will.
    12.) you're welcome and all questions asked that had answered were answered but feel free to make more stuff up.
    13.) i didnt, what debate? lol i just pointed out facts that went against your statments that you have now changed. Good job realizing they weren't good and logical sound statments. You're welcome again.
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    Re: Utah man gets maximum sentence in hate crime case

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    thats way i said "almost" shocking
    and its not the racist part that is shocking, there bigots right on this board and racism is still wide spread

    it was the whole writing a letter and mailing it to your neighbor telling them you are going to murder them thing that just surprised me

    i know racism comes from ignorance and stupidity but jeez lol

    but yes people are warped
    He's a dangerous nut job. There's something wrong with him.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  3. #33
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    Re: Utah man gets maximum sentence in hate crime case

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    He's a dangerous nut job. There's something wrong with him.
    Cant say i disagree in the slightest . . . im glad he will be locked up then watched for a while
    hopefully a psych eval is dont also
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    Re: Utah man gets maximum sentence in hate crime case

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) yes i know you took back your original statement
    who said i proved anythign wrong?
    no i didnt start the argument you did lol
    i still am not arguing, i pointed out a fact that you didnt like about your statements and now you retracted them and clarified them
    2.) good thing i never said otherwise and yes you admit that sometimes its ok and sometimes its not
    3.) weird, who said that? not me, do you frequently make up strawman like this?
    4.) not by your description of law
    5.) same place it does for all laws based on written law judge and jury
    6.) wrong again i simply pointed out that i didnt know because laws vary from areas. Yes you are pointing to federal laws but federal laws also have state standards that coincied with them at times and add to them. ANd i also mentioned evidence. It wanst based on "confusion"
    7.) you havent shown one single example that increases division based on law . . not one . . only based on feelings lol
    8.) nope wrong again i stated that in your examples the cause of division is feelings and that fact reminds true
    9.) but you did, you changed your opinion as it was written, In you head you may have not of changed it but you fixed your statments which did actually represent your opinion as written.
    10.) did i say that? nope another failed straw man
    11.) again you are talking about feelings which dont matter to law and rights.
    people make the same argument about equal rights for woman, minority and now gay rights. the law itself wont cause the division in those cases. Bigots and thier feelings will.
    12.) you're welcome and all questions asked that had answered were answered but feel free to make more stuff up.
    13.) i didnt, what debate? lol i just pointed out facts that went against your statments that you have now changed. Good job realizing they weren't good and logical sound statments. You're welcome again.
    1.http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...me-case-3.html look at your post on this page, that's when you start debating me at the top of the page

    2. When did I say it's ok to sometimes charge motivation crimes on someone and when it's not, I do state the motivation can play a role in how heinous a crime is and that should effect punishment. You stated we should charge someone on hate crime charges that is stating that it's ok to charge some one with crimes of motivation.

    3. Well you effectively led me to that conclusion by refusing to answer the question if attacking someone based on political thought is a hate crime or not. This isn't a strawman this is asking you what you think and you saying "I don't know know enough to answer"

    4. My description of the law is the definition I showed you. But ok then I guess you don't think hitting a girl because you hate ugly people isn't a form of prejudice

    5. I'm asking your own personal interpretation of where the line starts and ends and your suggesting that you don't know and that it's up to judges. Which then again shows the confusion of the law. The line where murder starts is when someone kills someone with the intent to kill the person. That's where it starts that's where it ends.

    6. Federal laws don't vary from areas. This is ridiculous

    7. ... Ok so I guess the Bosnians upset about the lack of hate crime charges isn't a direct result of the policy

    8. "7.) no it simply shows people will value thier opinions over facts and laws. Any division is created by subjective opinions not law." Your quote

    9. No I just over generalized my opinion this is not debatable your just trying to pinpoint reasons to try to disagree with an accidental over generalization then the actual point of the statement And still, I never admitted to charging people based on motivation but rather admitted that motivation plays a role in how bad a crime is.

    10. The minute you said to charge someone on hate crime charges is the minute you suggest we should create motivation as a crime. I was asking you if you would agree that motivation should not be a crime but that solely the act itself should be the crime

    11. It will cause and has caused more division talking about women's rights and gay rights shows no factual refutation of this. Feelings are a direct reflection of policy. It's not just an "opinion". That's like saying we should accept the NSA spying because it's the new law and if you disagree with that it's just a subjective opinion. Which is completely outrageous to any educated constitutional loving person.

    12. I'm glad an educated man of your statue is so ready to disagree with someone based on argument rather then actually discuss and learn together.

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    Re: Utah man gets maximum sentence in hate crime case

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    yeah i dont understand why hate crime laws are confusing to people. dont get me wrong i want ALL laws to be used and enforced properly with proper evidence but other than that theres nothing to understand.

    we already have many laws that follow suit like assault and aggravated assault etc.
    I need some clarification.

    Was the crime writing the letter or the threat?

    Was the threat credible? Could he have carried it out?

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    Re: Utah man gets maximum sentence in hate crime case

    Quote Originally Posted by Libertie76 View Post
    1. look at your post on this page, that's when you start debating me at the top of the page

    2. When did I say it's ok to sometimes charge motivation crimes on someone and when it's not, I do state the motivation can play a role in how heinous a crime is and that should effect punishment.
    3.) You stated we should charge someone on hate crime charges that is stating that it's ok to charge some one with crimes of motivation.
    4,) Well you effectively led me to that conclusion by refusing to answer the question if attacking someone based on political thought is a hate crime or not. This isn't a strawman this is asking you what you think and you saying "I don't know know enough to answer"
    5.) My description of the law is the definition I showed you. But ok then I guess you don't think hitting a girl because you hate ugly people isn't a form of prejudice
    6.) I'm asking your own personal interpretation of where the line starts and ends and your suggesting that you don't know and that it's up to judges. Which then again shows the confusion of the law.
    7.) The line where murder starts is when someone kills someone with the intent to kill the person. That's where it starts that's where it ends.
    8.) Federal laws don't vary from areas. This is ridiculous
    9.) ... Ok so I guess the Bosnians upset about the lack of hate crime charges isn't a direct result of the policy
    10) " no it simply shows people will value thier opinions over facts and laws. Any division is created by subjective opinions not law." Your quote
    11.) No I just over generalized my opinion this is not debatable your just trying to pinpoint reasons to try to disagree with an accidental over generalization then the actual point of the statement And still, I never admitted to charging people based on motivation but rather admitted that motivation plays a role in how bad a crime is.
    12.) The minute you said to charge someone on hate crime charges is the minute you suggest we should create motivation as a crime. I was asking you if you would agree that motivation should not be a crime but the solely the act should be the crime
    13.) It will cause and has caused more division talking about women's rights and gay rights shows no factual refutation of this. Feelings are a direct reflection of policy. It's not just an "opinion".
    14.) That's like saying we should accept the NSA spying because it's the new law and if you disagree with that it's just a subjective opinion. Which is completely outrageous to any educated constitutional loving person.
    15.) I'm glad an educated man of your statue is so ready to disagree with someone based on argument rather then actually discuss and learn together.
    1.) so you think like 5 posts into the conversation i started debating? LOL nope just pointed out facts and how your statments didnt fit.
    2.)easy you said you just said it again, you support it in case but not really for hate crimes
    3.) no its not lol a crime is committed first, motivation matters AFTER the crime is committed
    4.) repeating this lie wont make it true, i never refused to answer, in fact i answer every time
    your strawman is THIS "attacking someone based on political thought is not a form of prejudice?"
    never said that in any way, thats why it failed
    5.) BOOM! and there you have it ANOTHER strawman i never said or even suggested lol
    hate crime is not ANY and ALL Prejudice. Thank you for proving you dont understand what hate crime is
    6.) its not an opinion that i can thats why your claims are failing and there is no confusion
    7.) 100% false, i can have the intent to kill somebody and it not be murder if its self defense. Are you from the us?
    8.) good thing thats not what i said. ANOTHER failed straw man . . I said "laws also have state standards that coincide with them at times and add to them."
    9.) what policy? but no its a result of thier feelings.
    10.) correct thats my qoute about . . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . your example lol
    11.) yes which means you stated wrong compared to your actual opinion. Thats what "over generalization means" thank you for proving it
    12.) false since thats not what it does, thank you again for understanding you dont know what hate crime is, without a original crime FIRST there is not hate crime.
    13.) actually it does, it shows the law didnt create the division but feelings and bigotry did. The law actually made us all more equal. THat just hurt peoples feelings.
    14.) i agree that would be outrageous good thing thats nothing like equal rights and inst analogous on any level what so ever. Like i said my statments reflect the examples not stuff you want to make up.
    15.) what disagreement, what argument you keep repeating this but ill i did is point out a fact and you went to left filed and everywhere else with it. But please try another deflection and straw man since your others seemed to work so well.
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    Re: Utah man gets maximum sentence in hate crime case

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    I need some clarification.

    1.)Was the crime writing the letter or the threat?
    2.)Was the threat credible? Could he have carried it out?
    1.) writing a letter alone is not a crime, making a threat against life is
    2.) if the threat is credible doesnt matter "much" once its an "illegal" threat in terms of the CRIME of illegal threats itself.
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    Re: Utah man gets maximum sentence in hate crime case

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) so you think like 5 posts into the conversation i started debating? LOL nope just pointed out facts and how your statments didnt fit.
    2.)easy you said you just said it again, you support it in case but not really for hate crimes
    3.) no its not lol a crime is committed first, motivation matters AFTER the crime is committed
    4.) repeating this lie wont make it true, i never refused to answer, in fact i answer every time
    your strawman is THIS "attacking someone based on political thought is not a form of prejudice?"
    never said that in any way, thats why it failed
    5.) BOOM! and there you have it ANOTHER strawman i never said or even suggested lol
    hate crime is not ANY and ALL Prejudice. Thank you for proving you dont understand what hate crime is
    6.) its not an opinion that i can thats why your claims are failing and there is no confusion
    7.) 100% false, i can have the intent to kill somebody and it not be murder if its self defense. Are you from the us?
    8.) good thing thats not what i said. ANOTHER failed straw man . . I said "laws also have state standards that coincide with them at times and add to them."
    9.) what policy? but no its a result of thier feelings.
    10.) correct thats my qoute about . . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . your example lol
    11.) yes which means you stated wrong compared to your actual opinion. Thats what "over generalization means" thank you for proving it
    12.) false since thats not what it does, thank you again for understanding you dont know what hate crime is, without a original crime FIRST there is not hate crime.
    13.) actually it does, it shows the law didnt create the division but feelings and bigotry did. The law actually made us all more equal. THat just hurt peoples feelings.
    14.) i agree that would be outrageous good thing thats nothing like equal rights and inst analogous on any level what so ever. Like i said my statments reflect the examples not stuff you want to make up.
    15.) what disagreement, what argument you keep repeating this but ill i did is point out a fact and you went to left filed and everywhere else with it. But please try another deflection and straw man since your others seemed to work so well.
    So then what is a hate crime

  9. #39
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    Re: Utah man gets maximum sentence in hate crime case

    Quote Originally Posted by Libertie76 View Post
    So then what is a hate crime
    hate crim has CRITERIA, just like illegal discrimination

    here this will help educate you (federal standard)
    Hate Crime | CRS | Department of Justice
    Hate crime is the violence of intolerance and bigotry, intended to hurt
    and intimidate someone because of their race, ethnicity, national origin,
    religious, sexual orientation, or disability.
    and so will this one. this one even tells you the fact you didnt know earlier how about how it does vary from state to state. The fed sets up the basics and foundations and that densest change but some states include other things.
    hate crime legal definition of hate crime
    The precise definition of hate crime varies from state to state. Some states define a hate crime as any crime based on a belief regarding the victim's race, religion, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, or ancestry. Some states exclude crimes based on a belief regarding the victim's sexual orientation. Others limit their definition to certain crimes such as harassment, assault, and damage to property. In all states, the victim's actual status is irrelevant. For example, if a victim is attacked by someone who believes that the victim is gay, the attack is a hate crime whether or not the victim is actually gay.
    as you see it does vary and its not ALL and ANY prejudice

    and for extra kicks the first link even talks about BELIEFS (feelings) of people thinking its unfair creating a subjective division in thier own head

    is there anything else? honestly i'm here to help
    also if you want to know anything about me and my opinions simply ask instead of assume.
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    Re: Utah man gets maximum sentence in hate crime case

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    hate crim has CRITERIA, just like illegal discrimination

    here this will help educate you (federal standard)
    Hate Crime | CRS | Department of Justice


    and so will this one. this one even tells you the fact you didnt know earlier how about how it does vary from state to state. The fed sets up the basics and foundations and that densest change but some states include other things.
    hate crime legal definition of hate crime


    as you see it does vary and its not ALL and ANY prejudice

    and for extra kicks the first link even talks about BELIEFS (feelings) of people thinking its unfair creating a subjective division in thier own head

    is there anything else? honestly i'm here to help
    also if you want to know anything about me and my opinions simply ask instead of assume.
    Hate crime laws are federal Obama signs hate crimes bill into law - CNN.com regardless if the state takes the prosecution or not.

    Ok I would like to know if you think that a white person attacking another white person because he has helped the n.a.a.c.p is a hate crime or not.

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